What order should I use defence debuffers? 🤕

I couldn’t find an answer to this, but happy to be redirected.

So, clever people, if I have two defence debuffers, or a defence debuffer and elemental defence debuffer, is there a rule of thumb about the best order to use them?

For instance, in the Trial of Smash It (or whatever and barbarians) I take Grimm and Gormek.

I assume that the best cumulative damage is a lowish hit by Gormek followed by a much higher hit by Grimm, rather than a moderate hit by both.

But I haven’t tested it.

Similarly, in a green stack, I can take Buddy and Evelyn. Again, am I better off with Buddy then Eve? Or does her deeper debuff improve Buddy’s hit more than his improves hers?

Does anyone know?

@jinbatsu @Gryphonknight @zephyr1 @any_other_5martGuys

@kerridoc… No harm in trying

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Well i tested evelyn and buddy as i like to raid using green mono
Tried couple of times on each order
The lowest sum hits on same monster for evelyn then buddy were 506
The MAX sum of for buddy then evelyn were 493

I tested it on dark lord for multiple times each order

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This is good to know as I use both heroes in my green stack. I just assumed Evelyn then Buddy because I’m too lazy to test such things. Glad that is the correct order. Thanks!

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Nobody knows.

Click for boring math

We know they changed the formula

(Damage decreased)

But we don’t not know how. They may have tweaked the attack stat soft cap.

(Color Stacking: The Odds)

They may have changed the actual curve.

They may have changed it from additive ( -34% + -54% = -88% or 12% defense stat ) to multiplication ( 0.66 * 0.46 = 0.3036 or 30.36% defense stat ).

But it seems safe to say higher debuff first. So Evelyn ( -54% green ) then Buddy ( -34% all ).

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It depends on the combo. Usually you want to start with the weaker of the two to give the bigger boost to the other for damage. Debuff % comes into play so you have to look at each card and do the math.

Buddy - Eve : You will want to fire Buddy first to boost eves attack. You don’t want to boost Buddy’s attack as it is so low.

Athena - Arthur : You would want to fire Athena first as its Arthur has the higher burst damage.

Arthur - Isarnia: It could go either way depending on emblems, but there is a good chance where it would be better to put Arthur first in this scenario.

1 Like

Ok, I’ve done a quick test on pulverisers. I’ll try to do a more robust dataset if my toddler ever goes to sleep.

Test Vs Province 20 fire elemental

Test 1
Mek + Grimm - 377 + 616 = 993

Grimm + Mek - 501 + 566 = 1067

That seems to contradict the numbers @expired published above, although it was my initial guess too.

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If I may put on my fake intellectual cap on and present a thought:

I would assume it would generally be better to apply the elemental debuff prior to the standard debuff particularly in a color stack against a weak color (e.g. Evelyn & Buddy vs. Ice enemy).

Reason being the elemental defense down multiples the effectiveness of an already boosted effect

Nature does extra damage to Ice + when Ice is susceptible to additional damage from that element the second Nature standard defense debuffer does more damage sort of like:
Nature^2 x Damage

Whereas if the standard debuff goes first the hero firing the elemental doesn’t get that bonus sort of like:
Nature x Damage^2

How’s that ̷b̷u̷l̷l̷$̷h̷i̷t̷ explanation?

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Summary:

Higher def down first, except there are also other buffs, which possibly give another advantage.

My advice is to always interrupt your raids and especially titan fights to do some time consuming math for a slightly better percentage. :wink:

6 Likes

Only when they are against me…allow the full time to elapse while you calculate.

5 Likes

Yer, but specials are generally colourblind. So as long as your standard debuffer is the same colour as your elemental debuffer, there isn’t an additional damage due to the enemies element, that only comes from tile damage.

Right?

So the question is still a balance of attack power and depth of debuff.

I think.

4 Likes

I clearly stated it was a fake cap!

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As a rule of thumb for me, whoever has the highest defense amount reduction goes first. And when there is one more turn on that present debuff, then the second one goes. Same thing if I was running one Proteus and one Hel or double Proteii and I wanted to keep one side of the field suppressed.

Defense debuff is the most powerful in the game, so the higher one has a bigger impact than attack stat ( see notes ).

But.

For titans, and triple bosses, normal/ matching/ tile/ physical damage is more important so either order is fine.

Notes

Click for notes

Using the 5* damage formula as we currently understand it

Color stacking

3x Scarlett color stacking

Evelyn

1 - 54% green defense debuff = 0.46

( Attack stat / ( Defense * 0.46 ) )^1.35

Factor out
( Attack stat / ( Defense ) )^1.35 * ( 1 / 0.46 )^1.35

Or

( 1 / 0.46 )^1.35= approximately 2.8528x damage next green tile or green tinted special attack

Buddy

versus

1 - 34% all defense debuff = 0.46

( 1 / 0.66 )^1.35= approximately 1.7523x damage next any attack

Comparison

2.8528 green debuff x 531 Buddy base attack stat ( without troops and emblems) = 1,514.8368 attack

1.7523 any debuff x 727 Evelyn base attack stat ( without troops and emblems)= 1,273.9221 attack

1,514.8368 / 1,273.9221 = 1.1891x more attack stat for the second attack if Evelyn then buddy

So to maximize the damage from the second attack, green defense debuff then all defense debuff.

FIN

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Seems to me that the def down %, attack value and special % would determine which does most damage overall…I don’t think you can look at one of them alone.

1 Like

I agree.

That is why I do not sweat the exact damage and deal with more general rules of thumb ( see notes )

Notes

Click for notes

Basic color stacking

Color stacking

Color stacking, Empires hidden buff

Neutral color stacking

FIN

3 Likes

Makes some sense, but since Evelyn’s defense down is -54% and Buddy’s is only -34%, that could change things. And as Jonah pointed out it contradicts the numbers that Expired published. I’ll do some of my own testing and see what I come up with. Also I have Eve at 3/70 and Buddy at 4/70/19 so that could be my biggest reason to fire Eve first.

2 Likes

Came here for the discussion - which was quite good, and I will continue to follow - but my takeaway is that we need to immediately rename the Trial of Strength to the Trial of Smash It. Make it so, SGG!

3 Likes

You are correct. I should have checked my own math. Eve first would give you a 587 (x3) bonus vs Buddy first at 518 (x3).

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Hi, I have a question regarding which order I should fire off my hero specials to maximize damage. For my red stack, I usually use Boldtusk, Guardian Falcon, Gormek, and Scarlett. After using Boldtusk’s special to give attack up, should I attack with Guardian Falcon first or Gormek? Guardian Falcon does 225% dmg with 552 attack and gives -54% defense against fire. Gormek does 295% damage with 569 attack and gives -34% defense. I understand that elemental defense down stacks with normal defense down, but I’m not sure how to approach the math to calculate which order would lead to more dmg. Thanks

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