What order should I use defence debuffers? 🤕

[Guvnor]

@B1gHeadAss, I’ve shifted your post into a pre-existing thread asking the same question. Have a read up further in terms of the suggested order to fire.

As a secondary thing, see below explanation of HOW the two debuffs stack

@Kerridoc

To the best of our knowledge, the debuffs stack multiplicatively.

Example: You take Grimm (34% general defense reduction) and Jackal (-54% Holy defense reduction). The target’s effective defense is (1 - 0.34)*(1 - 0.54) = 30%, or a 70% defense reduction.

Remember that this goes into the damage calculation inside the exponent. The general formula says expected damage is proportional to (Attack / Defense) ^ 1.35. So a 70% reduction in effective defense basically quintuples the per-tile damage.

This multiplier is damped down by an unquantified but confirmed tempering of the damage as the ratio of attack to defense gets very high. You probably won’t see the tempering much unless you have big stacks of the color.

[Noble_Weasel]

I think specials aren’t tied to an element, except in special cases like Vela, so I’d guess Gormek before Falcon is the best order.

[B1gHeadAss]

Are you sure about that? When I fight Kashhrek with red hero’s and Kasshrek’s special goes off, all my red hero’s specials do way less damage

[Fizban]

Elemental defense reduction does improve specials.

Example: When I hit with Frida + Grimm + Magni…

• Frida hits three for her normal damage and applies -IceDef
• Grimm hits much harder and applies -Def
• Magni just whomps his target from the combined -IceDef & -Def

I can’t find it, but some time back, I did some experimenting with the order of Frida & Grimm and determined that Frida going first was always better. But since my memory is fuzzy and I can’t seem to find if I posted about it anywhere, you have to decide whether to take my word for it or not. Better yet… someone do some empirical testing!

EDIT: Found it… not tested, just math!

What is the best 1-2 punch / Hero Pairings in the game?

Let’s do this! I’ll use base max stats without factoring in emblems, and we can sort of ignore defense since they are very close on max attack rating anyway, that calculating with defense in mind will only be a very small difference anyway. Frida has 733 Attack x 2.90, and hits 3 targets for that amount. 733 x 2.9 x 3 = 6377.1 (call this “damage factor” as it isn’t the actual damage number you’ll see, but it represents a number we can use to compare) Grimm has 716 Attack x 2.95, but hits the…

Good gaming!

[Noble_Weasel]

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought I had read it the other way, but I never tested it. Now, if I just had Falcon, Freida, Evelyn, Panther, or Arthur…

[Warrior21]

I’m wondering what hero stat you put first, elemental or defense down (assuming both trigger at the same time)?

When fighting against titans or even raids if you had two heroes (let’s says for Nature: Buddy- defense down, and Evelyn/Almur- green defense down), who would you have attack first?

I usually have defense down then elemental down afterwards but I wonder if one have them does greater damage or give a greater advantage when going first?

Let me know if you take anything else in factor like damage dealt (Evelyn does greater damage so she should go after defense down) or other stats (like Evelyn’s dispel so she goes first)

I’ve been wondering this for a long time and just never knew which is best or if anyone ever did analysis on it so figured I’d ask

[Starless]

I’d do your elemental down first, with one exception being Wilbur before Falcon.

[Rosco1011]

I start Buddy before Evelyn, Wilbur before Falcon, costume Viv before Jackal, CC before panther but Frida before Athena

[masterslamhole]

I’m with @Starless. Most my elemental down are higher than the standard debuff so I fire them first. In battles I fire Wilbur first but against titans it’s falcon. And I’m coming from a titan point of view. It may be situational in other cases. If there’s a dispel involved or something like that…

[B1gHeadAss]

I think elemental defense down first will do more overall damage if both heroes do damage. I haven’t done the calculation however. The comparison would be:

• Buddy’s 205% dmg at 531 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -54% defense down
  vs

• Evelyn’s 210% dmg at 727 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -34% defense down

Also who is CC? Costume Tibertus?

[jinbatsu]

@B1gHeadAss

Also who is CC? Costume Tibertus?

Ceshire Cat, 20 cat character

[Olmor]

I don’t think that there’s much of a difference.

[BubblesUK]

@Olmor

I don’t think that there’s much of a difference

On titans?
100% this - it’s all about the tiles, a couple of hundred damage difference from special skills is nothing when your tiles are hitting 5k+ each.

On raids/etc?
Really depends on the heroes in question - generally I’d fire the one that does less direct damage first.

[B1gHeadAss]

I think there was a calculation done for Gormek and G.Falcon. In the case of these 2, G.Falcon firing first then Gormek deals more dmg.

[Guvnor]

@Warrior21, @Starless, @Rosco1011, @masterslamhole, @B1gHeadAss, @Olmor, @BubblesUK

Shifted this thread to a pre-existing one asking the same question. General consensus is to fire the one with the bigger defence debuff first.

Realistically it depends largely on the specific heroes you are using as the total damage done depends not only on the debuffs in place but the strength of the two strikes & the attack stat of the two heroes.

An older thread exists which explains HOW the two defence debuffs stack with an awesome explanation by @Kerridoc (Quoted above):

@Guvnor

As a secondary thing, see below explanation of HOW the two debuffs stack

@Kerridoc

To the best of our knowledge, the debuffs stack multiplicatively.

Example: You take Grimm (34% general defense reduction) and Jackal (-54% Holy defense reduction). The target’s effective defense is (1 - 0.34)*(1 - 0.54) = 30%, or a 70% defense reduction.

Remember that this goes into the damage calculation inside the exponent. The general formula says expected damage is proportional to (Attack / Defense) ^ 1.35. So a 70% reduction in effective defense basically quintuples the per-tile damage.

This multiplier is damped down by an unquantified but confirmed tempering of the damage as the ratio of attack to defense gets very high. You probably won’t see the tempering much unless you have big stacks of the color.

[Guvnor]

MATHS!!

As a follow-up to this I have run some maths…

The TLDR is to fire the hero with the bigger defence debuff first. In all cases.

Grimm vs. Frida Order

(attacking a 5* defender, looking only at the TARGET)

Case 1: Grimm first then Frida
Total Damage = 915.98

Case 2: Frida first then Grimm
Total Damage = 1278.09

Isarnia vs. Frida Order

Case 1: Isarnia first then Frida
Total Damage = 1011.68

Case 2: Frida first then Isarnia
Total Damage = 1136.63

Evelyn vs. Buddy

Case 1: Buddy first then Evelyn
Total Damage = 527.57

Case 2: Evelyn first then Buddy
Total Damage = 651.08

Buddy vs. Almur

Case 1: Buddy first then Almur
Total Damage = 295.78

Case 2: Almur first then Buddy
Total Damage = 518.81

White Rabbit vs. Jackal

Case 1: Rabbit first then Jackal
Total Damage = 879.97

Case 2: Jackal first then Rabbit
Total Damage = 1226.13

[Ultra]

@Guvnor

Please include combo of Panther & Tiburtus & c.Tiburtus, and Falcon & Gormek, and Frida & Athena & c.Magni.

Thank you.

[Guvnor]

Thats a lot of extra combinations… If I find time I will try to do them.

[Gorann]

Oh, and could you bring me some toast when you’ve done? Two slices white, not overdone, buttered to the corners. Thank you.