Who is the Best Vanilla Tank? 🍦

Her attack stat is high so I’d just go that route, especially since she’ll almost certainly be on your titan team. I know Scarecrow has also said offensive Fighters should pour on attack so it’s more devastating if they revive and fire.

That said, I didn’t fully spec her out and would do that before I decided. My guess is it’ll be like Jackal; even going full defense / hp it was obvious he’s be upgraded, at best, from very fragile to regular fragile. So I felt going full attack and hoping he survives through Evade a bit longer was the best course. I’d guess Elena could maybe go from fragile to whatever is slightly better than fragile but still well shy of robust. Attack, let the revive work from time to time.

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This surprises me and I remember you saying the same thing in your Embleming Heroes guide (which I think is excellent, btw). So you consider him more towards the sniper class? Do you think of Frida the same way?

If you look at paladin grid you’ll see the player is forced to go mainly def path. And Richard has already a tone of def. There is no point in let him be as weak as Justice, for example (for me, Justice is a joke; to little damage and any cleanser has the time to cleanse). Besides, like I also said in that thread, Richard is a hitter, not a support hero. It seems obviously for heroes like him and Frida to choose any atk node available. When I attack, Richard is one of my best heroes. I rely more on him, than Magni, who dies easily. And the best use for Richard is side finisher (hitting the wing with an already harmed flank, wipes both heroes, so strong his damage becomes after his atk stat is 700+). And if they somehow survive, they’re useless being with attack down and low HP. Support heroes like Ares and Aegir have to go only def/HP path, but not the A3E and splash hitters. You know, the best defense is the attack :slightly_smiling_face:

P.S. At last 5* rush attack tournament, my alt (Richard +11) finished undefeated…

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Yeah I use Richard as tank, and I started off on strictly DEF route but now I’m more tempted to switch to attack. My thinking was originally that the protect talent adds a multiplier for DEF, so it would be crazy to not take advantage. But he’s so tanky now it just feels like diminishing returns.

As an aside, seems like people always talk about ATK or DEF nodes as a binary choice. I think it sometimes is, but shouldn’t certain heroes be balanced? For example, I’ve picked from both sides for Athena because her primary role is debuffer, but she’s also a hitter.

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I agree that attack path with Richard is better too.

He already has the same defense stat as Kunchen before emblems, but Richard’s skill is more threatening when it heavily damages his target – leaving it in range of death by slash attack when fighting him on defense.

This is mostly thanks to his already high % damage from his skill. Pumping his attack will make that high % much more notable, and he still picks up a decent amount of defense anyways.

EDIT: although Thorne is a less desirable tank choice, if you have no one better for a blue tank, he’ll be serviceable with emblems – so long as he also goes the attack path (for the same reasons as Richard)

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I’ve been wondering about this. I envisioned Thorne as my tank not so long ago, but it didn’t work that well. My paladin emblems are going to Gunnar right now (still on my paladin trial team) after taking Sonya to +20, but if I ever get around to embleming Thorne, my thought was to go attack. After all, if his special is only damage, it had better be A LOT of damage! Thanks for confirming my thoughts.

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Am I the only one using Horghall(+11) as tank? He usually keeps me around 2500 cups. Or maybe it’s the rest of my defense team.

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Yes, yes you are. :evergreen_tree::deciduous_tree::evergreen_tree::deciduous_tree::evergreen_tree:

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Yeah Horg isn’t too good these days. He’s slow mana, and even if he does go off it’s not a big deal really. Just hold BT’s special and it’s like Horghall’s special never happened.

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C’mon - you know I looked. It’s just that I disagree with you. :stuck_out_tongue:

Forced Nodes

Looking at the Paladin grid through node 18 (since that’s a realistic stopping point for most / all heroes), offensive upgrades are forced three times:

Fork 2/3: attack either direction
Node 10: attack, no option
Fork 16/17: attack either direction

That’s tied for first in most attack nodes forced among all the classes (with 4-6 others classes, depending on how you want to treat Ranger and Rogue’s mana boost at node 8).

However, you are also forced to go defense twice, which is more than the average of 1.4.

Choice Nodes

What I could agree with is that a maximally offensive Paladin cannot get as much as offensive as other classes. You only have the choice / are forced to go offense 6 times, which is below average. The average is 6.4-6.4, again depending on how you want to classify node 8 for Rangers and Rogues.

Paladins have an equal number of offensive options / forces as Druids, Fighter, and Monks (and one more than Cleric and Sorcerer).

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He is OK, but he needs good heroes beside him.

I have him at the same emblem level, and I just can’t stay in diamond, only get there with revenges, which is OK, at least I can collect the food and iron from the chest.

You have a fair point,

I play with Joon+7, Boldtusk+20, Thorne+7, Sartana+7, Zimkitha+7

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Do you happen to observe non vanilla heroes for comparison?

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Richard

Especially if you pick up his Costume.

Reasons being:

  1. He’s got the highest base defence stats of the Vanilla Heroes
  2. His special is an attack Debuff with DoA making him mighty annoying.
  3. This special is Average Speed as opposed to Slow which is the other 5* DoA heroes which interfere with attacks (See Horghall, Quintus Costume, Justice etc…)
  4. He is Paladin Class which is naturally increases tankiness

Vanilla Heroes Ordered by Defence:

Link to spreadsheet used for comparison:

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I say Richard, Boldy, Justice

Absolutely! For ease and to save time I’m going to only pull from ~2/3rds of the data I have, but it’ll give us a reasonable idea of a few reasonable comps. N.B. there are many tanks for whom I clearly have too small a sample, including Black Knight, Hel, and Yunan. If I don’t list someone you expect to see here, it’s more likely they’re in that category than that they posted a lower win rate. Also, I’m not posting all non-vanillas, just a few I thought would be interesting / that people would have a lot of experience with (since those are useful as comparisons).

Gravemaker: 11.36%
Anzogh: 11.11%
Kunchen: 9.36%
Mitsuko: 8.33%
Onatel: 7.56%
Guinevere: 6.98%
Ares: 4.65%
Santa Claus: 4.55%
Drake Fong: 4.35%
Aegir: 3.85%

Three quick preliminary observations:

  1. I have two Seshat, so while I think Guinevere is a better tank than Onatel, she’s sometimes easier for me to counter.
  2. Very unimpressive from Aegir, to come in below so many vanilla tanks.
  3. Also underwhelming: Ares and Santa Claus. Given how much I clearly struggle with red tanks (see Elena, Azlar, GM, Anzogh), for them to do so poorly is really damning.
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Interesting data, though I think the composition of your team really skews some of the results (like the mentioned Aegir). Similarly, it is tough comparing results against Boril and say Richard, because it is likely that the surrounding team with a 5* tank is likely stronger than surrounding a 4* tank (i.e. probability that your tank is your weak/ strong spot vs. it being your average hero).

From that point of view, some of the classic 4* tanks are probably even slightly better than your data may suggest. Elena seems to be the biggest surprise for me (since people trash her so much), but again, it could be due to your selection of offensive heroes, or some people heavily embleming her fopr the titan tile damage and having all of the other toys around her, which is causing you the trouble. (trouble in parentheses, you still have a huge win rate)

The biggest tank gamechanger for me, will be when we get a 5* Boldtusk (fighter healer buffer). that will be extremely annoying with multiple revives…

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Elena without emblem is weak because her low defense but that also mean defense emblem investment in Elena have higher return compared to other tanks.

If a hero have original defense of 500 is given 90 defense emblem, it defense is raised by 18%

Meanwhile, when a hero that have original defense as high as 900 is given 90 defense emblems, it only increase the defense by 10%.

And then there is also the revive talent…

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Those are all great points! I have tracked team power, but not emblems on individual heroes (nor troops). Ultimately, this project is still in a pretty early stage in which data gathering has been my emphasis. I have some preliminary ideas about trying to ‘normalize’ the data by trying to account for team power (as a proxy for emblems, support, and team synergy), but haven’t yet made an attempt.

I agree with you that some comparisons are easier than others. I look at this and am impressed by Boril, in comparison to Aegir since I know I attack them with similar teams. But I agree that Boril to Richard is less useful; Isarnia is probably a better comp for him.

This is à propos of nothing being discussed, but I’m also noticing that I often struggle with riposters. Elena, Boril, and even Obakan can all be problematic for me. It’s something I’ve made a mental note of to maybe look into more. While dispellers are the obvious first thing to assess I actually suspect that in those fights I am not bringing enough healing.

Are you stacking heavily? In such a case an unlucky combo over a riposter can wipe your team and cause a loss even if you should dominate a team. One out of 10-20 fights is areasonable chance for that to occur?

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