I mean Iron I seem to gain very easily so I’ve not maxed the advanced mines as the food cost is pretty daft. But farms are all done and as above the sooner you do the sooner it pays you back.
If the math says something like it won’t be profitable for “X days” then at some point that means it will be profitable. And the sooner you do it the sooner you hit that point right?
Yep–so it matters if you have something else whose return you value more or returns it quicker or whether you can afford to lose the investment and lost income.
About to hit Lvl 21. Thank you for the heads-up. I was wondering whether or not it was worth it. Much appreciated.
Since I am only a 2-monther F2P, if I may ask, why upgrade Forge to only level 17? I thought Time Stop is a lvl 18 item and it is crucial to beat the rare quests with predominantly 3* teams, and those quests are to my opinion crucial to ascend 5 star heroes without having to invest money, so the sooner you start completing them, the better, isn’t that so? Or is there a safe way to beat the rare quests without time stop with 3* teams?
Once you have a team of 3* you can blast your way through with Axes, Arrows, mini mana and mana pots if you needed to.
We were all there once and sometimes we forget how much less resources we had so I know those items cost you more (relatively) than me. But once you get a reasonable 3* team you won’t need time stops as these are very costly and better saved for titans.
So initially beyond lvl 17 is probably iron you can use on other items as you get yourself rolling.
This is a marathon, not a sprint but wasted resources can slow you down even more at times
I find that quite hard to believe, frankly. Naturally those items are good to get the 3-star ascension nonfarmable material from each rare quest, but they seem insufficient to beat the bosses on the final level to get that 4-star item. Axes and arrows, and even bomb attacks are simply not enough damage. 3-star heroes are pretty hard to keep alive (need to waste mana pots on healers) even vs the regular monster waves in the last battle of a rare quest, and they fail miserably to inflict enough damage to the bosses before getting killed. I guess that could be done with 75 gems resurrection option, but I don’t like that. I’ve seen Youtube videos from experienced players showing how to beat the last battle of a rare quest with a 3-star team and…it always included high-level items, especially timestops. I’ve also seen videos that showed beating those quests with a team of not fully ascended 4-level heroes, but a roster of 4-stars is very hard, nearly impossible to assemble for a couple months F2P. If you could give me a video, or a thorough explanation which depicts how to win a rare quest final battle with a team of 3-stars with nothing but low-level forge items used I’d be very grateful.
Edit: Also, those videos I mentioned show the heroes getting equipped with highly trained 4-star troops, which is also unattainable for a couple months F2P.
I get top 1000 Rare each Event and these are the items I use For that. Having the right heroes matters of course but Rare is the easiest to get these (which makes top 1000 rare very competitive but top 10k is easily achievable)
Knowing how to play it matters but the score for the final levels are done using this method. There’s lots of threads on here around how to play events, the method is the same and well worth looking into.
I think you misunderstood me.
What I meant is beating Rare Quests - like Mount Umber or Farholme pass - with a team of 3* reliably without having to waste tons of 20-flag attempts on the last level or 75 gems. You probably have a full roster of 3-stars to pick the most efficient group for each event or rare quest, however keep in mind that as a new player I don’t have a large choice of 3* or unascended 4* at my disposal - I barely have 3 of each color, and some of them are pretty underwhelming like 2Carver of Friar Tuck for example. So I cannot compose a team of 3-5 Namahages for example backed with 3 15 level Firecaller Wizards, which would definitely make Shriekwood seem like a walk in the park. Heck, I don’t even have Belith or Hawkmoon yet. That’s why I asked for an opinion - is it possible to beat the last level of a rare quest reliably with only low-tier forge items, without level 18 forge and time stops with a batch of random 3* and an occasional unascended 4*?
No. Even time stops aren’t going to help there IMO. 3 stars are too weak. I’d be surprised if you can even make it to the final round.
Also he was referring to rare difficulty of challenge events… which, really, isn’t relevant to your question about time stops, since they can’t be taken on rare difficulty anyway.
Personally, I never use them much. But I got Proteus pretty early (about 4 months in), and he’s a game changer.
Thanks for the clarification.
However, I saw a video on Youtube of a F2P gamer called Farmer Ben beating the rare Morlovia Quest final chapter (Royal Tabard) with only 3* yellow heroes, with Hawkmoon and Belith as team healers. He used Timestops and Dragon Attacks to pull it off, I will show you the link here:
Frankly, beating the 3* ascension mat level before the last one is quite doable with a rainbow team of 3* developed heroes and only low-level items. However the last level requires color stacking and even that way it seems impossible to pull off without the right high-level items produced in the Forge.
Now what I say here is nothing more than this: A F2P player cannot rely on many hero choices early in the game, but then again, beating those rare quests - namely the last chapter - is essential in the long run, especially since they’re almost exclusively the only 100% sure way to get unfarmable 4* ascension mats. And since a new player is obliged to start beating these rare quests ASAP, the only thing a new F2P player can rely on are two things. The first is a batch of 3 star heroes - a reasonable quantity of each color can be obtained between Atlantis summons, Valhalla Summons, Costume chamber and Challenge events - all of these require different kinds of coins given as reward on multiple occasions, and in addition to that - at least getting a 100% 3* from a specific color via an elemental portal exchange for 300 gems because training a sufficient amount of 3 stars via TC the regular way takes way, way too long. The second thing is the forge items.
Getting Proteus is great, from what I see he works like a permanent Time Stop, at least concerning enemy mana generation, but as you can understand, for a new F2P player it’s a very small chance to get him with the limited supply of atlantis coins and gems. I got 2 Atlantis pulls at the end of the first month playing, and all I got were Melia and Kelile.
Sorry to pull this topic in an entirely different area, it was not my intention, but only wanted to post all this here to clarify why a Forge level 18 is crucial to a new player, especially if that player doesn’t want to spend money on this game - because that gives you Time Stops, which (as shown in the video) can help you beat any rare quest with only 3 star team.
This original post was made approximately 1.5 years ago. I wonder whether the original poster and those who posted that they will not max and/or level the advanced farms and/or mines still haven’t maxed them yet. I dunno if @Wharflord is still playing as I don’t see his name anymore in the leader boards of various challenge events, which was previously a common occurrence when I was still a fledgling in the game (still a fledgling but an experienced one 
).
@Ultra I thought it had been merged tbh…
I’m lost anyways, I’ve misunderstood the question but I did the final Quest in Farholme with a 100 emblem rare team a way back. Can’t remember the items I used but it was possible. You just need to colour stack against the final boss colour.
And I’m out 
Nah. For me, this thread was dead after I posted my response agreeing with @Gryphonknight. I just didn’t know back then that there is already a forum feature muting a thread and mostly ignored this subject whenever it got to the top when a recent response was posted. It just recently came to my attention because I was curious on the recent like I gathered on that said post.
TBH, I didn’t read everything here. After rereading my post that was recently liked, I reread the OP and didn’t bother to read the subsequent responses anymore. I dunno if several threads were merged here. Gryphon’s contention was valid then as it is now still… for me anyways. Well, I maxed all the available structures to be maxed. Didn’t come to regret it and I don’t think I will in the foreseeable future.
P. S. Back then, I didn’t like the analysis of the OP and thought that some tinfoil hatmen were out just to keep low-level players lagging behind to those who were already experienced than us, propagating such analysis that it is impractical leveling those resource structures to hinder its good effects masked as a negative one while they themselves are leveling or maxing those structures. That is why I asked whether they maxed those advanced buildings or not. Not really interested in their replies.
Anyway, ignoring this thread for the last time by muting it. Happy weekends, everyone.
With the right team you can finish Season 1 with only 3* heroes ( Gunnar 3* 3.50 has the defense stat of Grimm 4* 4.70 ).
If you want to use high level Battle items to finish rare quests and get 4* ascension items then…
Do it.
It is your game.
Have fun.
But in my experience, Empires and Puzzles is a marathon, not a sprint.
In my opinion, players should enjoy the journey.
It is a game.
The game is most fun, and enjoyable, before Stronghold 13.
But it is still quite playable for a while after that.
Below post includes a lot of the core game play. Warning, lots of links leading to even more links. Like a link Hydra. Click on one, and more grow back.
(4* to 3-60 or 3* Maxed? - #6 by Gryphonknight)
Resource comparison for food, Hero XP and ascension items
FIN
The original post is still very valid. Figuring out the opportunity cost / ROI for farms and mines is a good idea, and can really help optimize your build for early/mid game.
Importantly, how much you should work on mines (and to a lesser extent, farms) depends on if you’re F2P or not. I had a second F2P account, and it just didn’t need the same level of mines to keep up — only 1 builder makes a huge difference.
Late game it doesn’t matter as much. I’m close to finishing my second advanced mine. After that I’ll work on my advanced farms. Already have maxed HA and AL (and all that implies), I’m maxing my advanced house because recruits don’t matter now, and once everything else is done I guess I’ll work on HL.
Another key thing to learn is what your daily iron and food earn rate is, which is a combination of mine/farm/watchtower, map stages, and raids. For me it’s about 2M food and 1.5M iron a day. So I can closely estimate how long I’ll need to stop using before the next building upgrade (or HA9 / 10 retraining).
Oh this post is a classic example of the Devs do actually read the forum.
No need for high level buildings, fine, we will change the game design for advanced training camps ( now Hero Academy ) and Alchemy Lab.
If I recall correctly, Hero Academy 4* retraining, and Alchemy Lab 4* ascension item roulette, requires close to maximum storage buildings, and lots of food and iron.
But I have not done a base food budget recently.
Lots of things ( looking at you 5* Battle items ) that seemed important before Alchemy Lab v2.0, and Hero Academy v1.0, are just.
Meh.
I cannot believe I am saying this, but after the disaster of v1.0, Lab v2.0 is actually usable. Not what the players want and the game experience needs, but usable. Given the profit protection the company’s investors require, the Devs managed to squeeze out some benefits to the players.
While emblems v2.0 is still a mess, but less a mess than v1.0 .
As a player, and a game designer, I severely dislike the model for emblem resets, especially v2.0 decision about gem resets not returning food and iron.
(Reset token used but no food/returned - #7 by VeryQuietly)
But Devs want to encourage Advanced production buildings. Even if many F2P players will just not reset.
So the Devs attempt to encourage Advanced production buildings may have failed.
The 5* HotM business model does severely restrict innovation, creativity, and fun ( looking Tavern of Legends summons right in its bloodshot eye ).
Alchemy Lab
Hoarding food
([Math] Hoarding resources in Training camps versus Hero Academy)
Specific Classic 5* hero
Summons
Some of my top posts, are rants about 5* HotM Business model
FIN
I was able to beat the last level of Shiloh desert without Time Stops, so I guess you were right and Forge level 18+ is unnecessary.
However concerning mine and farm upgrades - where do you store all your food prior to making Hunter’s lodge? I have constant troubles with food and iron storages filling up to the max - even with 2 builders (I am F2P, just created 20 extra accounts and leveled them to 10 for the free 120 days VIP + gems, plus got invited for 10 additional VIP days) I cannot expend all of that, and I am forced to make tons of items like axes or mana potions just so I don’t waste any food or iron. Feeder heroes and troops are not enough to expend the extra food. Any tips on that?
Edit: Naturally I store all my recruits + 1000 food per each 2 recs in a 11 lvl training camp, and it’s still not enough to contain the food production.
Excessive food is stored in TC20. If you don’t have it then use food for upgrading mines/watchtower. Then at last make small and big mana potions. Believe me they are needed for later.
Also alchemy lab is a good place for burning food. And did you upgrade the troops ? Troops burns tons of food.
My stronghold is level25/player level 58 and I’m still low on food.
How to burn food:
TC19. It uses lots of food, training with 1s uses even more.
TC20 as food storage. Although I can count the number of times I’ve actually taken food out on one hand. TC12 is better if you don’t want more S1 5s.
Alchemy Lab.
Hero Academy 3 — fastest way to level a hero. But actually uses less food (net) than TC19.
Item production in forges. As noted, you’ll always need more mana potions. Eventually.
Troops. Easy to use 1M+ food once they’re near or above 20… but you’ll find that when you’re at that point the issue will be actually having troops to train with.
Reroll in raids. It uses SH level * 100 food.
Just want to burn food to no actual benefit? Get near max storage and convert an advanced food storage back to normal. Then convert back. Now you have empty storage.
But if you’re routinely overrunning your storage… STOP IMPROVING FARMS AND MINES. Work on storage (you’ll need all of it for HA10. Every single one), work on SH, work on anything else. Which brings us back to the OP.
QFT there. I’m closing in on my first lvl 23 Mana (Purple) and that is going to exhaust pretty much all my saved up feeder troops.
