looks like this would be a good place to ask. Which heroes increase mana generation by the largest percentage?
I know ariel is 24%. Which heroes match or exceed her mana generation buff%
I believe that record is currently held by costume Alberich, at +38%
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Mica is great, too with 33% at charge 3.
And all heroes from the Slayer Family can reach 50%. @ManiacOfMayhem
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Disregarding 3*, here are some other mana generation boosters
Khagan: 24% to nearby allies (costume is 12% to all)
Costume Justice: 24% to self
Costume Thorn: 24% to self
Costume Yunan: 33% to all
Boss wolf: 24% to nearby allies
Lancelot: 24% to nearby allies
Odin: maxes out at 28% to all
Sif: 24% to nearby allies
DâAndre: 24% to all
Hulda Minons: 24% to owner
Alberich definitly the highest buff, but some interesting new metas lately with Xnolphod increasing 20% and Ahhotep increasing 20% if target is killed in next three turns, and Khonshu with 50% mana gain on kill. I have Xnolphod and I am working on Ahhotep and Khonshu to pair with Ariel for an interesting synergy
And then you have Ludwig, but he is a different ballgame
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Great work, thanks! 
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For these slayers then, if you do the 2% mana node emblem plus level 11 Mana troop (9%) or level 5 magic troop (8%) then thatâs 11% or 10% respectively so they become average speed (10 tiles needed)? Assume their stack never activates.
Sorry for a long-winded post, but thus far for magic heroes, I still donât think we have an accurate understanding of the 2nd charge because of the fact that the 1st charge and 2nd charge require unequal amounts of mana/tiles: roughly 5.5 until the 1st charge, but then from there roughly â6.1 to 6.3â additional tiles to get to roughly â12.1 to 12.3â tiles.
It is sometimes possible to get to the 2nd charge with only 10 tiles with a 21% mana gen bonus as previously shown in a video. However depending on the order of tiles matched, sometimes 10 tiles with a 21% mana gen bonus is not able to fully reach the 2nd charge. The order in which the tiles are matched and obtained matter.
From my testing, if the matches happen in this order: 4 , 3 , 3 = 10 tiles will get you to the 2nd charge with 21% bonus.
However, if the matches happen in this order: 3 , 3 , 4 = 10 tiles will NOT get you to the 2nd charge.
My guess is that at least the first 7 tiles need to be acquired from a starting point before the 1st charged is reached.
(I think a similar phenomenon complicates our understanding of the Styx heroes charging requirements as well)
2 Likes
With so many different speeds being present in todayâs game, can we get a definitive guideâŠ
VF - 6.5
F - 8
Av - 10
Slow - 12
VS - 13.5
Magic 1 -
Magic 2 -
Styx 1 -
Styx 2 -
Styx 3 -
Ninja 1 -
Ninja 2 -
Ninja 3 -
Slayer -
I have having to guess exactly what the speed is⊠and honestly⊠I appreciate people can mathematically establish what the rate of a category is⊠but why donât the developers just tell us⊠Faster than slow is a bullcrap description.
2 Likes
Well, itâs pretty easy
Slayer, styx, ninja, magic
1 - you still have a fighting chance;
2 - youâre pretty much fuâŠed;
3 - well, thatâs it⊠if you somehow survived thereâs a small upper right corner icon depicting a running man, use it to put out own miseryâŠ
Thatâs prety much all one needs to knowâŠ
2 Likes
These are the numbers:
VF - 6.5
F - 8
Av - 10
Slow - 12
VS - 13.5
Magic 1 - 5.5
Magic 2 - 12.3
Styx 1 - 6
Styx 2 - 9
Styx 3 - 12
Ninja 1 - 4.9
Ninja 2 - 9.8
Ninja 3 - 14.7
Slayer - 11
Information on some of them:
13 Likes
Beautiful. Iâd hug you⊠But no.
1 Like
you are the real MVP
2 Likes
Thank you for the amazing work.
Will this be updated to include Slayers/Nyx?
Styx and magic mana break points canât be summarized as easily.
The exact same mana bonus for 2 identical heroes can require different amounts of tiles to reach full charge. (I have a longer post about this earlier in this thread).
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Warning: long post incoming
The past few months I collected data on several hero speeds by counting turns and avoiding tiles to hit the target heroes.
This basically consisted of looking for raid teams with an interesting hero on a wing, then throwing tiles everywhere else except this hero until charged, then counting the turns and verifying again from the recorded video.
Some of the data required certain mana bonuses and a certain combination of -24%, -34%, -44% (= previous Treevil) and -64% mana debuffs, which can be hard to pull off, especially if the board tries to âhelpâ you with cascades â which actually happens quite often when you want to avoid cascadesâŠ
=> If other players could test and verify my data, that would be great
(I hunted for most of the data in the 1800 cup range to find targets with a clearly identifiable class mana generation bonus and to allow my âscience teamâ to survive long enough to collect the data)
Unfortunately, the data on the magic heroes is not conclusive and I havenât found out why so far (also due to real life, especially work, etcâŠ). Friendly battles also gave inconsistent data.
=> Something else seems to be influencing the mana generation for the defense besides the obvious sources (turns, tiles, buffs, debuffs, direct mana from specials, mana per turn from specials, mana upon dying).
So this data might not be as final as it seems, but it should be in the right ballpark at least.
Now, the data. How many turns are required to charge heroes on the defense?
| turns (not charged yet) | turns (charged) | |
|---|---|---|
| ninja charge 1 | 5,71 | 5,72 |
| magic 1 | 6,23? | 6,24? |
| styx 1 | 6,97 | 6,98 |
| very fast | 7,58 | 7,59 |
| fast | 9,07 | 9,08 |
| average | 11,52 | 11,53 |
| slayer | 12,4 | 12,45? |
| slow | 14 | 14,01 |
| very slow | 15,26 | 15,27 |
How does this compare to the tiles for the attack team?
| tiles on attack | turns on defense | ratio | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Charge 1 | 4,89 | 5,72 | 1,1698 |
| Magic 1 | 5,5 | 6,24? | 1,1346 |
| Styx 1 | 6 | 6,98 | 1,1634 |
| very fast | 6,5 | 7,59 | 1,1677 |
| fast | 8 | 9,08 | 1,135 |
| average | 10 | 11,53 | 1,153 |
| slayer | 11 | 12,45 | 1,1319 |
| slow | 12 | 14,01 | 1,1675 |
| very slow | 13,5 | 15,27 | 1,1312 |
Which mana generation bonuses are then required for the defense to charge in X turns?
| Charge 1 | Magic 1 | Styx 1 | Very fast | fast | average | slayer | slow | very slow | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| turns | 5,72 | 6,24 | 6,98 | 7,59 | 9,08 | 11,53 | 12,45 | 14,01 | 15,27 |
| 3 | 91% | 108% | 133% | 153% | 203% | 285% | 315% | 367% | 409% |
| 4 | 43% | 56% | 75% | 90% | 127% | 189% | 212% | 251% | 282% |
| 5 | 15% | 25% | 40% | 52% | 82% | 131% | 149% | 181% | 206% |
| 6 | -5% | 4% | 17% | 27% | 52% | 93% | 108% | 134% | 155% |
| 7 | -19% | -11% | -1% | 9% | 30% | 65% | 78% | 101% | 119% |
| 8 | -29% | -22% | -13% | -6% | 14% | 45% | 56% | 76% | 91% |
| 9 | -37% | -31% | -23% | -16% | 1% | 29% | 39% | 56% | 70% |
| 10 | -43% | -38% | -31% | -25% | -10% | 16% | 25% | 41% | 53% |
| 11 | -48% | -44% | -37% | -31% | -18% | 5% | 14% | 28% | 39% |
| 12 | -53% | -48% | -42% | -37% | -25% | -4% | 4% | 17% | 28% |
| 13 | -56% | -52% | -47% | -42% | -31% | -12% | -5% | 8% | 18% |
| 14 | -60% | -56% | -51% | -46% | -36% | -18% | -12% | 1% | 10% |
| 15 | -62% | -59% | -54% | -50% | -40% | -24% | -17% | -7% | 2% |
| 16 | -65% | -61% | -57% | -53% | -44% | -28% | -23% | -13% | -5% |
| 17 | -67% | -64% | -59% | -56% | -47% | -33% | -27% | -18% | -11% |
| 18 | -69% | -66% | -62% | -58% | -50% | -36% | -31% | -23% | -16% |
| 20 | -72% | -69% | -66% | -63% | -55% | -43% | -38% | -30% | -24% |
now for the boring details:
mana bonus = sum of all mana generation bonuses
fast: 9.08 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Elkanen | 0 | 10 | 10 | ||||
| Joon | 18 | 8 | 9,44 | ||||
| Ranvir | 4 | 9 | 9,36 | ||||
| Joon | 17 | 8 | 9,36 | ||||
| Caedmon | 0 | 7 | 2 | 1 | 9,08 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Elkanen | 0 | 9 | 9 | ||||
| Lianna | 24 | 7 | 8,68 | ||||
| Joon | 11 | 8 | 8,88 | ||||
| Magni | 13 | 8 | 9,04 | ||||
| Joon | 17 | 4 | 6 | 9,06 | |||
| Lianna | 11 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 9,07 |
Ninja charge 1: 5.72 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Garnet | 11 | 6 | 6,66 | |||
| Quartz | 9 | 6 | 6,54 | |||
| Sapphire | 0 | 6 | 6 | |||
| Onyx | 0 | 5 | 1 | 5,76 | ||
| Garnet | 15 | 5 | 5,75 | |||
| Cobalt | 0 | 5 | 2 | 5,72 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Onyx | 11 | 3 | 3 | 5,64 | ||
| Garnet | 0 | 5 | 1 | 5,66 | ||
| Onyx | 0 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 5,68 | |
| Garnet | 0 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 5,7 | |
| Ruby | 7 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 5,71 |
magic 1: 6.24 turns (?)
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nadezhda | 0 | 7 | 7 | |||
| Anastasia | 11 | 6 | 6,66 | |||
| Motega | 9 | 6 | 6,54 | |||
| Anastasia | 4 | 6 | 6,24 | |||
| Dölgöön | 13 | 2 | 5 | 6,21 | ||
| Anastasia | 9 | 5 | 1 | 6,2 | ||
| Dölgöön | 13 | 5 | 1 | 6,14 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nadezhda | 0 | 6 | 6 | |||
| Nadezhda | 0 | 5 | 3 | 6,08 | ||
| Anastasia | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 6,12 | |
| Nadezhda | 9 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 6,23 |
Styx 1: 6.98 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hypnos | 17 | 6 | 7,02 | |||
| Arges | 0 | 5 | 3 | 6,98 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hypnos | 17 | 5 | 5,85 | |||
| Nyx | 13 | 6 | 6,78 | |||
| Hypnos | 0 | 3 | 6 | 6,96 | ||
| Hypnos | 5 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 6,97 |
very fast: 7.59 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Kage | 0 | 8 | 8 | ||||
| Vanda | 13 | 7 | 7,91 | ||||
| Gravemaker | 11 | 7 | 7,77 | ||||
| Kage | 10 | 7 | 7,7 | ||||
| Kage | 7 | 6 | 2 | 7,68 | |||
| Jackal | 0 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 7,64 | ||
| Thor | 9 | 7 | 7,63 | ||||
| Mireweave | 5 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 7,59 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Kage | 0 | 7 | 7 | ||||
| Malosi | 7 | 7 | 7,49 | ||||
| Gravemaker | 0 | 6 | 2 | 7,52 | |||
| Malosi | 0 | 3 | 6 | 7,56 | |||
| Malosi | 7 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 7,58 |
average: 11.53 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Uraeus | 0 | 12 | 12 | ||||
| C-Boldtusk | 18 | 10 | 11,8 | ||||
| Uraeus | 7 | 11 | 11,77 | ||||
| C-Sabina | 5 | 11 | 11,55 | ||||
| Devana | 7 | 10 | 1 | 11,53 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| C-Boldtusk | 18 | 9 | 10,62 | ||||
| Uraeus | 0 | 11 | 11 | ||||
| Leonidas | 4 | 11 | 11,44 | ||||
| Uraeus | 15 | 10 | 11,5 | ||||
| Aegir | 0 | 10 | 2 | 11,52 |
slow: 14.01 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Quintus | 0 | 15 | 15 | ||||
| Noor | 13 | 13 | 14,69 | ||||
| Vivica | 11 | 13 | 14,43 | ||||
| Quintus | 9 | 13 | 14,17 | ||||
| C-North | 8 | 13 | 14,04 | ||||
| Raffaele | 15 | 10 | 2 | 1 | 14,03 | ||
| Quintus | 5 | 12 | 1 | 1 | 14,02 | ||
| Horghall | 7 | 9 | 3 | 3 | 14,01 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -44% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Quintus | 0 | 14 | 14 |
very slow: 15.27 turns
| charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Alfrike | 0 | 16 | 16 | |||
| Alfrike | 0 | 15 | 1 | 15,76 | ||
| Kalo | 0 | 15 | 1 | 15,66 | ||
| Kalo | 0 | 13 | 3 | 15,28 | ||
| Kalo | 5 | 13 | 2 | 15,27 |
| not charged fully | mana bonus [%] | regular turns | -24% turns | -34% turns | -64% turns | total turns |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Alfrike | 0 | 15 | 15 | |||
| Alfrike | 0 | 13 | 1 | 2 | 15,08 | |
| Alfrike | 0 | 13 | 2 | 1 | 15,18 | |
| Alfrike | 0 | 13 | 2 | 2 | 15,24 | |
| Alfrike | 7 | 11 | 3 | 3 | 15,25 | |
| Alfrike | 9 | 14 | 15,26 |
slayers: 12.45 turns (12.4 < slayer speed †12.45)
| turn | hero | mana bonus [%] | stack bonus [%] | turn bonus | total turns | charged? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Cathal | 9 | 0 | 1,09 | 1,09 | |
| 2 | Cathal | 9 | 0 | 1,09 | 2,18 | |
| 3 | Cathal | 9 | 0 | 1,09 | 3,27 | |
| 4 | Cathal | 9 | 0 | 1,09 | 4,36 | |
| 5 | Cathal | 9 | 0 | 1,09 | 5,45 | |
| 6 | Cathal | 9 | 5 | 1,14 | 6,59 | |
| 7 | Cathal | 9 | 10 | 1,19 | 7,78 | |
| 8 | Cathal | 9 | 15 | 1,24 | 9,02 | |
| 9 | Cathal | 9 | 20 | 1,29 | 10,31 | |
| 10 | Cathal | 9 | 25 | 1,34 | 11,65 | |
| 11 | Cathal | 9 | 30 | 1,39 | 13,04 | charged |
| turn | hero | mana bonus [%] | stack bonus [%] | turn bonus | total turns | charged? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Cillian | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 2 | Cillian | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | |
| 3 | Cillian | 0 | 5 | 1,05 | 3,05 | |
| 4 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,1 | 4,15 | |
| 5 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,1 | 5,25 | |
| 6 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,1 | 6,35 | |
| 7 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,1 | 7,45 | |
| 8 | Cillian | 0 | 15 | 1,15 | 8,6 | |
| 9 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 9,8 | |
| 10 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 11 | |
| 11 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 12,2 | |
| 12 | Cillian | 0 | 25 | 1,25 | 13,45 | charged |
| turn | hero | mana bonus [%] | stack bonus [%] | turn bonus | total turns | charged? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Cillian | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 2 | Cillian | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | |
| 3 | Cillian | 0 | 5 | 1,05 | 3,05 | |
| 4 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,1 | 4,15 | |
| 5 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,15 | 5,3 | |
| 6 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,15 | 6,45 | |
| 7 | Cillian | 0 | 10 | 1,2 | 7,65 | |
| 8 | Cillian | 0 | 15 | 1,2 | 8,85 | |
| 9 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 10,05 | |
| 10 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 11,25 | |
| 11 | Cillian | 0 | 20 | 1,2 | 12,45 | charged |
| turn | hero | mana bonus [%] | stack bonus [%] | turn bonus | total turns | charged? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Cillian | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| 2 | Cillian | 0 | 35 | 1,35 | 2,35 | |
| 3 | Cillian | 0 | 35 | 1,35 | 3,7 | |
| 4 | Cillian | 0 | 40 | 1,4 | 5,1 | |
| 5 | Cillian | 0 | 40 | 1,4 | 6,5 | |
| 6 | Cillian | 0 | 45 | 1,45 | 7,95 | |
| 7 | Cillian | 0 | 45 | 1,45 | 9,4 | |
| 8 | Cillian | 0 | 50 | 1,5 | 10,9 | |
| 9 | Cillian | 0 | 50 | 1,5 | 12,4 | |
| 10 | Cillian | 0 | 50 | 1,5 | 13,9 | charged |
9 Likes
With @Nynaeve_alMeara publishing a new overview of the mana speeds and break points, I decided to visit this issue with magic heroes again and investigate some more.
I could and still can reproduce this situation. The magic hero with +21% mana generation is charged with 4-3-3 and also with 3-4-3, but not with 3-3-4.
So on offense a magic hero can actually charge magic with only 12.1 tiles (= 10x 1.21), if the sequence of the tiles is suitable.
Letâs take a closer look at this. How many tiles does magic2 actually need?
The magic1 is reached with 5 tiles and 10% mana generation, so we know for certain:
magic1 = 5.5 tiles
I can get this with 5% from troops + 5% from a bard hero, or with +10% mana generation from Delilahâs special.
Tests with magic1 already charged this way as a starting point show that you need 6.8 more tiles for magic2.
-
Magic2 is not fully charged with 2 minor mana at +10% mana generation, 10% direct mana at +14% and 2 tiles at +14%.
6.7857 = 2x 25% x 1.1 x 6.7857 + 10% x 1.14 x 6.7857 + 2x 1.14 = not fully charged -
Magic2 is fully charged with 1 minor mana at +10%, 3 tiles at +10% and 2x 10% direct mana at 20%.
6.8041 = 25% x 1.1 x 6.8041 +3x 1,1 + 20% x 1.2 x 6.8041 = fully charged
=> it should be safe to say that magic2 = 6.8 tiles
The 5.5 tiles and 6.8 tiles combine to a total of 12.3 tiles
Now the fact that you can get magic2 charged with only 12.1 tiles at +21% mana generation means that
- 0.2 tiles or more get generated along the way, if you charge this with 4 tiles, 3 tiles, 3 tiles
- 0.2 tiles or more get generated along the way, if you charge this with 3 tiles, 4 tiles, 3 tiles
- less than 0.2 tiles get generated along the way, if you charge this with 3 tiles, 3 tiles, 4 tiles
In the first two situations 7 tiles are moved while in the magic1 5.5 tile bar, 2.97 tiles are in excess (= 7x 1.21 - 5.5).
In the other situation only 6 tiles are moved while in the magic1 5.5 tile bar, 1.76 tiles are in excess (= 6x 1.21 - 5.5).
The excess is taken over to the magic2 6.8 bar, but obviously not as tiles, but something else. Maybe as a percentage?
2.97 tiles = 54% of the magic1 5.5 tile bar.
1.76 tiles = 32% of the magic1 5.5 tile bar.
54% of the magic2 6.8 tile bar = 3.672 tiles
32% of the magic2 6.8 tile bar = 2.176 tiles
=> that would generate too much additional mana, as also the 3-3-4 would then fully charge magic2
Maybe itâs a 50/50?
(5.5 + 6.8) / 2 = 6.15 tiles
54% of the 6.15 tiles = 3.321 tiles
32% of the 6.15 tiles = 1.968 tiles
=> still too much additional mana
Maybe itâs something like 2:1?
2/3x 5.5 + 1/3x 6.8 = 5.9333
54% of the 5.9333 tile bar = 3.204 tiles
32% of the 5.9333 tile bar = 1.8987 tiles
=> that would fit
3.204 + 3x 1.21 = 6.834 â charged, ok
1.8987 + 4x 1.21 = 6.7387 â not charged, ok
=> not very elegant, but provides something like an explanation
2 Likes
Do you want to input some of the numbers into here and see if it lines up with what you predict?
1 Like
Complete layman here, so I apologize if this is obvious nonsense, but doesnÂŽt that sound like an unintentional rounding upon reaching charge 1? DoesnÂŽt seem likely to me to introduce some artificial additional counting of moved tiles for no reason other than making different combinations of matching the same tiles to produce different amounts of mana? what would be the reason for that?
I find it much more likely itÂŽs an unintentional rounding error.
1 Like