Originally I created this post to establish a reasonable guideline for defensive mana generation. Since March 2017 when this game was released, we had a basic understanding of the speed in which mana is accrued and obtained defensively. The time this post has been active with collective contributions in which statistical figures presented by @Elioty33 served as the foundation for the discovery in which @Zack has refined and is very close to finding the exact value in regards to all aspects of defensive mana generation and will only be a matter of time until it is complete.
Currently we have enough information data and testing to be able to apply the information with confidence and dependable accuracy. However, Zack is on a mission and Iām just here to help him test and aid him in any way I can. So I really wanted to take the time to acknowledge the efforts from these two men and the time that theyāve put in to figuring out the exact calculations that have never been truly known or understood. Thanks to them thatās all about to change and Iām just glad to have witnessed it!
Enjoy the thread thereās a lot of good stuff here and donāt forget to give a shout out to the great work and dedication to those two men!
If you scroll to the very end and up a little bit I will try to always keep a chart regarding defensive mana generation that is at least a usable for the time being until we figure out the exact numbers in which at that time we will complete and construct a full and 100% representation of the Discovery made
That may be what you call the hidden factor? Well itĀ“s not hidden, but itĀ“s one you didnĀ“t mention: Combo moves add less mana (by how much less exactly I do not know). So a combo of 2 3-matches adds less mana than 2 separate 3 matches would (or a 6 tile single move would)
I kinda would disagree in the conclusion: Exactly because you cannot predict the battle and how many tiles will hit a hero in how many turns (plus combos skewing everything even further): All else being equal: faster is always better on defense. Full well knowing that sometimes it does and sometimes it does not make a difference.
Or maybe to put the same fact into different words: Increasing mana speed on defense does not increase your absolute speed, but the chance to increase speed.
Of course one can always discuss whether speed is more important than stats, but that doesnĀ“t really belong hereā¦
I love the post. It adds some clarity around a complex topic (including direct mana gain bonuses).
Who thinks this? Or why do people think that?
This is what I was hoping to see. I love that you did some math on what happens. It bothers me SG doesnāt tell us this. But combos make it more of a question. Iāve seen other games tell you the actual percent of mana a hero has so you can do quick math on the fly to know the implications. Again, SG chooses not to be transparent with this very important mechanic.
Yeah I did multiple testings on different speeds and stuff like that against an actual defense and it does vary because if you combo more than three tiles itās pretty significant the increase in which is applied which you would think by making a big combination it would reward the offense but no it doesnāt which means when you have a bad board and you have to explode ā ā ā ā not only does the defense already have the advantage but now youāre giving them a huge mana advantage as well
That isnāt bad approximation but still not correct.
ā1 Turn is the equivalent of one Tile in an offensive settingā
I am not sure of you really test this correctly or not. But from my experience, it is slightly more than that. Maybe, 1.2-1.5 tile per turn. There are many time that I have to charge my team to kill Mother North or Heimdall enemy at wing. I donāt think I have as many turn as 12 turn. Probably, about 8-9 turn if I donāt hit them with any tile. I know mana regen from troop have effect but I still think it is more than 1 tile per turn.
āFor every tile that makes contact with a defensive hero, It is counted as Ā½ Turnā
I am not sure at this as well but there is only one thing about this that I am very sure. The higher combo reduce mana gain on the tile contact. From my experience, it is like
0 combo ā 0.5 tile per contact
1 combo ā 0.5x90% = 0.45 tile per contact
2 combo ā 0.5x80% = 0.40 tile per contact
3 combo ā 0.5x70% = 0.35 tile per contact
ā¦
9 combo ā 0.5x10% = 0.05 tile per contact
10 combo ā 0.5x0% = 0 tile per contact
11 combo ā 0.5x0% = 0 tile per contact
12 combo ā 0.5x0% = 0 tile per contact
ā¦
I didnāt test this and not sure if this is really correct or not but high combo really reduce mana gain on the tile contact.
I had a top 30 dude come at me once like I was stupid and he was a decent player. I was like sorry bro but itās known and he goes well Iām going to take the word of this player over somebody like you lol.
I went and pulled a bunch of charts and other spreadsheets to show him how smart he was simply for the fact that he was being disrespectful in the way that he approached it. Instead of having a conversation chose to just tell me I was wrong and act like I was stupid for even talking about it.
Some people forget that we all have the ability to add to this game and the community in which we play. Every living person is on an equal playing field in and is entitled to being treated with decency and respect. People should remember that thereās actually human beings on the other end of conversations they have and this is a game that people play for enjoyment and to escape the BS of RL.
All is forgiven obviously as we are all imperfect creatures in which forgiveness is required. We all have made and will continue to make mistakes so forgiveness is an essential part of humanity and understanding. But yeah Iāve had a lot of people question me regarding talking about defensive troop assignment. The most important aspect of defense is getting that first special ability off and why people love fast heroes, because the best ability is the one that actually fires lol.
I chose not to go into very specific and exact detail because my aim isnāt to help people become an expert. When teaching or educating anybody you should know your audience and I know that studies say that the majority of people struggle with basic mathematics comprehension.
The goal is more to help people grasp and understanding of the concept in a way that doesnāt confuse them further. If I start shooting out decimals/percentages and fractions all over the place, then I am more likely to further confuse somebody than give them an understanding.
This is why when we talk about Charge Speeds, we refer to them as 5/10/15 tiles and not 4.905/9.81/14.715. Obviously for my calculations I had to use those numbers but itās just not something people really need to know to have a better understanding.
Believe it or not I actually left out a lot more than that, but the goal is understanding, not expertise Iām definitely not mass confusion. Cheers!
In fact, what you do is actually similar to what I think originally. Yes, it is simple model that work somewhat well but not totally correct.
The problem is we still donāt know the exact number. I still never see anyone here test this properly. How do you know that it really take 8 turn to charge fast heroes on defense without any mana bonus if you donāt hit them with any tile ? Also for all other mana speed ? You just simply say that since it take 8 tile to charge fast heroes, so it should take 8 turn to charge fast heroes without any proper test or prove. You just assume that.
However, since we donāt know that exact number but your goal is to help people to understand the concept in a way that doesnāt confuse them further, you should give them the detail that how and why do you get those number. And since your spreadsheet isnāt totally correct, you should give them the limitation of your spreadsheet. This will be the best thing you can do to help people to understand without confusing them further unless you want to test to find the exact number.
However, I still donāt think it is a good idea to help people to understand the concept with spreadsheet in form of table while you still donāt know the exact number or detail.
Some time ago I did some tests on mana on defense as well and found slightly different numbers.
There are a few threads where players investigated the mana generation for the defense, which I took as a starting point for my own investigation.
First was thread with a statement from @Petri that @Aquaginera_7DD cited:
āMana needed for each mana speed is not the same for offensive and defensive heroes in raidsā:
In that thread she also reported on her findings:
it takes a fast hero without mana troop 10 turns to be fully charged without getting hit
it takes a slow hero without mana troop 15 turns to be fully charged without getting hit
it takes a fast hero with +7% mana troop 9 turns to be fully charged without getting hit
I tested these situations and could confirm them.
@Damirius did some further analysis by counting the pixel length of mana bars:
Current theory is:
combo 1 tile (1c1) is 66.66% of a tile in offense, and End of Turn (EOT) bonus is 1.30 of a 1c1. This gives (without any mana bonus):
Mana Speed
Predicted 1c1
Predicted EOT
Measured 1c1
Measured EOT
Very Fast
10.256%
13.333%
-
13.42%
Fast
8.33%
10.83%
8.2%
10.5%
Average
6.666%
8.666%
6.5%
8.5%
Slow
5.555%
7.222%
-
-
Very Slow
4.938%
6.420
-
-
Mana gained from hits depends on current number of combo. Combo 2 hit gives 90% of Combo 1 hit, and Combo 3 hit gives 90% of Combo 2 hit, and so on.
I wanted to do some tests as well, but I quickly gave up on the pixels and instead looked at the number of turns it takes to charge a hero on defense. To get more data I then applied mana generation debuffs.
How many turns are required to charge heroes on the defense?
turns (not charged yet)
turns (charged)
ninja charge 1
5,71
5,72
magic 1
6,23?
6,24?
styx 1
6,97
6,98
very fast
7,58
7,59
fast
9,07
9,08
average
11,52
11,53
slayer
12,4
12,45?
slow
14
14,01
very slow
15,26
15,27
How does this compare to the tiles for the attack team?
tiles on attack
turns on defense
ratio
Charge 1
4,89
5,72
1,1698
Magic 1
5,5
6,24?
1,1346
Styx 1
6
6,98
1,1634
very fast
6,5
7,59
1,1677
fast
8
9,08
1,135
average
10
11,53
1,153
slayer
11
12,45
1,1319
slow
12
14,01
1,1675
very slow
13,5
15,27
1,1312
Which mana generation bonuses are then required for the defense to charge in X turns?
Charge 1
Magic 1
Styx 1
Very fast
fast
average
slayer
slow
very slow
turns
5,72
6,24
6,98
7,59
9,08
11,53
12,45
14,01
15,27
3
91%
108%
133%
153%
203%
285%
315%
367%
409%
4
43%
56%
75%
90%
127%
189%
212%
251%
282%
5
15%
25%
40%
52%
82%
131%
149%
181%
206%
6
-5%
4%
17%
27%
52%
93%
108%
134%
155%
7
-19%
-11%
-1%
9%
30%
65%
78%
101%
119%
8
-29%
-22%
-13%
-6%
14%
45%
56%
76%
91%
9
-37%
-31%
-23%
-16%
1%
29%
39%
56%
70%
10
-43%
-38%
-31%
-25%
-10%
16%
25%
41%
53%
11
-48%
-44%
-37%
-31%
-18%
5%
14%
28%
39%
12
-53%
-48%
-42%
-37%
-25%
-4%
4%
17%
28%
13
-56%
-52%
-47%
-42%
-31%
-12%
-5%
8%
18%
14
-60%
-56%
-51%
-46%
-36%
-18%
-12%
1%
10%
15
-62%
-59%
-54%
-50%
-40%
-24%
-17%
-7%
2%
16
-65%
-61%
-57%
-53%
-44%
-28%
-23%
-13%
-5%
17
-67%
-64%
-59%
-56%
-47%
-33%
-27%
-18%
-11%
18
-69%
-66%
-62%
-58%
-50%
-36%
-31%
-23%
-16%
20
-72%
-69%
-66%
-63%
-55%
-43%
-38%
-30%
-24%
My impression on combo 1 tiles is that they give at least 2/3 of a turn of mana for the defense - it looks like it is a bit more than that, but my data there is not as clear as I want it to be. With 2/3 of a turn you are on the safe side and it easier to calculate: without mana generation buffs/debuffs 3 combo1 tiles that hit a target let the target charge in 2 turns less.
Data:
I found that fast heroes on defense with 0% mana generation charge with
0 combo1 tiles and 10 turns
1 combo1 tiles and 9 turns
2 combo1 tiles and 8 turns
3 combo1 tiles and 8 turns (tile < 0.69333 turns)
4 combo1 tiles and 7 turns
5 combo1 tiles and 6 turns
6 combo1 tiles and 5 turns (tile > 0.68 turns)
7 combo1 tiles and 5 turns
8 combo1 tiles and 4 turns
9 combo1 tiles and 3 turns
and average heroes with 0% mana generation charge with
0 combo1 tiles and 12 turns
1 combo1 tiles and 11 turns
2 combo1 tiles and 10 turns
3 combo1 tiles and 10 turns
4 combo1 tiles and 9 turns
5 combo1 tiles and 8 turns
6 combo1 tiles and 8 turns
7 combo1 tiles and probably 7 turns (didnāt get that situation)
8 combo1 tiles and 6 turns (tile > 0.69125 turns)
9 combo1 tiles and probably 6 turns (didnāt get that situation)
10 combo1 tiles and 5 turns
So far so good, but I also got a fast hero with 7% mana generation that charged with
5 tiles in 5 turns (tile > 0.697196)
or a ninja with 0% mana generation that charged with
1 tile and 5 turns (tile > 0.72)
which doesnāt match with the < 0.693333ā¦ probably some mistake on my side.
=> if somebody could check these situations and find my mistake that would be great
Who said I havenāt tested? Iām actually still currently testing, but in order to do some properly I have to have My fellow alliance members customized their raid defense to exact specifications so that I donāt have any unforeseen variables or circumstances in which my results could be skewed, altered or misrepresented.
Understand it If I was going to go in depth about everything that I consider to help identify how I have to isolate individual hero speeds with exact mana numbers and then get boards that let me properly test and then I have to properly test them in multiple fashions and I only get with the addition of 100 gems 10 attacks a day.
In my conclusion I also stated that this was to make people aware of the potential that is possible which means itās not an exact science and I did disclose that if you read carefully. So how about you stop telling me that Iām saying things that I didnāt say and didnāt say things that I did say and that would be a good start.
Lastly you say I shouldnāt give people a concept but maybe you should understand the definition of what a concept is. Itās not factual, Itās not exact, Itās an awareness to the presence of something. In other word for it would be an opinion, a belief, an idea and to tell me that I should not relay a concept would be pretty much to tell me not to think. If youāre going to use words please understand them first because I know it comes out of my mouth and I know the things I say and I feel like Iāve been pre-transparent in regards to the fact that itās not a perfect system.
So before you come telling me I shouldnāt teach a concept, Understand that a concept is not something that you teach, Itās something that you share. At least I take time to try and help people understand things not criticize them in the process. I encourage you to do the same and if you donāt like my numbers get off your butt and go figure out your own. Have a great day!
Oh and good sound research always has a concept or an idea behind it and usually itās called a hypothesis. Itās actually a pretty important factor in which you base your research off of this concept or hypothesis and when itās proven inconclusive or information is obtained to make it more accurate, then a new hypothesis is created and testing starts all over again. You have Google at your fingertips I suggest you start using it, because Iām not dumbing down my grammar to appeal to your perception due to the simple fact that words have exact meanings and if you donāt know something you should probably look it up first.
Unfortunately I canāt use anyone elseās numbers because I canāt guarantee that theyāre actually isolating these factors that could potentially be harmful and resulting in illegitimate numbers. Iām even using different software to be able to graph the mana gauges with gridlines to Mark the mana gauge and identify just exactly how much movement has occurred.
Iāve also noticed that when combos occur that the special is reached faster not slower as some people have stated. But Iāll figure it out I just need time to be able to get enough data to properly analyze and configure system in which I can analyze with high accuracy and precision and when I get there Iāll let you know. But unless someone has actually figured out or recognize proven data I wonāt even look at it cuz itās a waste of my time. When I test stuff I know that there are no hidden variables through passives family bonuses talents and things that people could easily miss.
I can tell you Iāve seen an average speed hero with a two tile bonus actually fire an eight and Iāve seen them fire in 10 as well. Soon I will connect the dots but I havenāt had a full chance to review because I want to make sure that I have enough documents video and Iām also trying to develop a measuring system for the mana grids using different software mainly stuff like picture editing and customizing my own scale in which I can easily determine the quantity of mana gained per turn in a very controlled setting.
Right now Iām just coming up with design concepts and thatās why itās so awful looking because itās just me quickly grabbing and putting together a picture with the whole turn-by-turn mana generation of an isolated hero in which Iām testing.
Once I find my correct measurement tools that allow me to evaluate with high accuracy just how much mana has been gained on each individual turn, Will I then be able to accurately analyze and figure out how it works. Give me time Iām very creative and I will figure it out but Iāve just started.
Even if I do figure it out the chances of most people even being able to apply it in a real setting is going to be very impractical, especially considering the awareness of numerous variables from different aspects and possibilities in which they can occur can take place. That is why my conclusion was more of an idealistic approach than an actual answer or result from a finding.
I think you understand me wrong. I say that you shouldnāt give people a concept āwith spreadsheet in form of table while you still donāt know the exact number or detailā. Because when many people see the table, they thought that is exact number. I know not every people are smart. Sometimes, they donāt use it carefully. I think that is what most people do (from aspect of a person who use spreadsheet. I know is am just a single person but this is my opinion.).
Also it is impossible to give EVERY people a concept without confusing EVERY single person. So, the best best choice is give most people a concept with confusing least people. What I want to say is that it isnāt good idea if you use the spreadsheet in form of table while you still donāt know the exact number or detail because it will confuse some people.
If you want really to give people a concept while you still donāt know the exact number, I think you should use only the text as the main part of your spreadsheet not table. You may have a table but table should be secondary and you also should give the detail that how your number in the table come and the limitation of those number. I think this is the best choice.
The base mana per turn on defense is still 0.75 tiles.