"How better" is +18 DEF than +36 Health right now? In what cases it's resonable to go for the HP instead?

[Abel]

I think it’s a common belief in the community that “+18 Def > +36 HP”? Does it always still apply? Have things changed a bit? Might it be more debatable/discussable than it used to be Now?

I believe it’s still pretty clear in some cases, like, if it’s a Paladin, you should priotize DEF over Health because it synergizes with the Class Talent. But what about non-Paladin heroes? What about Druid heroes?

Can we think of Druid Class as some kind of “counterpart” to Paladin Class? I mean in the sense that while Paladin Class urges you to prioritize DEF over Health, does Druid Class urges you to prioritize Health over DEF?

And other than the Class, can another factor be the “Star” of the hero and how far you intend to go on the Talent Grid.
I mean, you’re less likely to use a 3* hero against a HotM(there for DoT). Any similar logic for 4*s we intend to stop somewhere 7-12/20 and not go full or near-full grid?

Can we say that, for the 3* heroes we will just emblem 6-7 nodes of, taking the 18 DEF is always the way instead of 36 Health? Even if it’s a Druid like Melia, Brienne, Jarvur?

(Sorry my communication skills are not very good nowadays but I had no more time to wait to ask this. I want to start embleming my heroes but I’m feeling kinda “frozen”, not knowing where to go. I could use a hand. Any input on DEF nodes vs Health nodes is appreciated actually.)

[Kalis]

With the increased leverage DoT has been playing, this is always a great discussion.

[LordDust]

I think Gryphonknight actually did the math for a straight-up fight, and the preference for DEF over HP is very slight… 5%? Something like that. So in the biggest picture possible, DEF > HP is sensible, but specific cases change things considerably.

At the moment, one obvious preference for HP might be because you have a +MaxHP Hero, like Heimdall. Then, your HP nodes could be considered to be more than 36.

So, my question is, what stage are you at? What’s your roster like? What’s your long-term plan for what to concentrate on?

And if these questions seem too complicated or vexing, stick to DEF > HP.

[ll2000sr]

@Abel

I think it’s a common belief in the community that “+18 Def > +36 HP”? Does it always still apply? Have things changed a bit?

I think so, at least with the latest version where damages have been changed from percentage to total numbers and the many dot’s out there, it’s a really good question.

On the other hand, less hp provides lower scoring on the war table, so you have to think twice about how you would like to use your hero.

[Guvnor]

There are a couple factors to consider.

1. War Defence. Taking the +36 health option WILL result in your war defence being worth more points. period.
   The GOAL of war defences is to get every single defence worth equal points. thus there is no “easier kill for points” option.

2. Offence vs. DoT. Taking the health option will give a better survival rate against DoT heroes appearing on defence… +36 won’t do MUCH but it’ll do a wittle bit.

3. Minions. If the hero creates minions, having the extra HP nodes will give the minions spawned more bulk (as minions inherit stats from the CASTER not the owner).

For me personally, if the hero appears on your war defence, take Defence over HP. Otherwise, the HP node IMO has more value.

[Abel]

@Guvnor

For me personally, if the hero appears on your war defence, take Defence over HP. Otherwise, the HP node IMO has more value.

Do you think you should take DEF over HP for Melendor and Sabina? (they are low def supportive heroes with already high HP) Maybe the DEF could use a bump?

[Guvnor]

@Guvnor

For me personally, if the hero appears on your war defence, take Defence over HP. Otherwise, the HP node IMO has more value.

Are they on your war defence team? If yes, take Defence. If no, take HP (IMO).

1defence point ~= 2 HP points. Can work the maths through yourself in the damage calculation (link - Damage Calculation)

[Abel]

@LordDust

So, my question is, what stage are you at? What’s your roster like?

I’m level 37 and our alliance is fighting 9-10* Titans.

@LordDust

What’s your long-term plan for what to concentrate on?

Honestly, not sure about “long term”, but as “short term” plans; I intend to get some of my 3* and 4* heroes to 7/20. (As seen in the image, I already started with Namahage.) I intend to stop at 7/20 for my 3* heroes.(No intentions to unemblem my Balthazar though) As for 4* ones, I might get them(or atleast some of them) as high as 12/20 later after getting them to 7/20 first.
I’m thinking maybe this way I can be more of a help for wars, without making my alliance get matched with way stronger opponents in a way that my Embleming venture will bring more harm than good.

I think will be focused on 3-4* for a while rather than 5*.

[Gryphonknight]

@LordDust

I think Gryphonknight actually did the math for a straight-up fight, and the preference for DEF over HP is very slight

Search is almost impossible on forum because most people use different labels/ nicknames

But a few quick links

TOK data

(Classes and the defense meta - #223 by Garanwyn)

@zephyr1 collection of links

(Classes... which is better... health or defence for Guardian Jackal - #7 by zephyr1)

Old note, generalization

(Damage Calculation - #308 by Gryphonknight)

Search terms

HP node DEF node Emblems Which Better Versus

[Cheds]

Guv kinda nails the thought process but I’m slightly more simplistic in my approach.

If it’s offence I’ll go all swords and I’m not generally bothered beyond that so whether one is better than the other doesn’t bother me.

But if it’s a healer or a support hero I just like them having more health. You get a bigger heal from the percentage heal and for me you stay in the fight longer. Kiril’s job for example is to heal and buff everyone. For me and my easy logic brain more health more means more chance to do that.

There’s tonnes of deep analysis with numbers and what not but I just go with my gut on that one.

[Homaclese]

I wholeheartedly agree with point 3, and Noor is merrily travelling along on the health path. Once she gets to max emblems the extra health will translate to hundreds of points of extra health for spawned minions in each match-iup/

For point 2 I agree although its probably dependent on the exact team config. Extra health will definitely help against JF (who has no up-front component) but will it still be a clear win for Vela who has up-front and DOT? And you need to factor in the other non-DOT heroes you are facing.

For point 1 I don’t think that you can make that blanket judgment. Increasing your health will slightly raise your defense value relative to all the other alliance defences - but on the flip side it will slightly lower the the combined other values so that the alliance still has a combined value of 1500. I think it comes down to whether you WANT to have a lower win value or not. If you have a poorly performing defence then I think it makes sense for you not to inflate its value. If you hae a defence team that performs very well then you wouldn’t mind its value going up if it gets benefit from the health up - and in fact luring more people to attack that defence may be beneficial

[LordDust]

So, if you’re involved in War, Guvnor’s criteria is advice well taken.

A little bit more specifically, consider what each of those Heroes will be doing. Most people in your situation have one “best” tank for everything, so that Hero needs more armour. The Hero you use to deal with DoT (Rigard!), probably wants HP. Maybe specialize your snipers, one for DoT with HP, one for straight attack damage with DEF. And so forth.

Honestly, only going to 7 does not result in a really crippling over-specialization if you don’t get it exactly right.

[LordDust]

I can where equalizing available points might be a good strategy for higher alliances, but I’m not sure Guv’s analysis applies to this member. At this apparently early stage, I doubt they’re in an alliance with enough homogeneity to achieve equalization without crippling their more valuable members, or enough regimentation to achieve it. Correct me if I’m wrong @Abel.

[ManiacOfMayhem]

Make sure to check classes too, paladins always go defense because they gain bonus defense with their skill.

I would even say this is true with minion creator paladins like telluria.

The defense gains +25% of whatever you gain from nodes, improving survivability and leading to a higher chance of successfully casting your skill.

Now if telluria minions hp was at 20% there would be a real debate for hp vs def, but at anything less than 15% on a paladin minion creator I’d say go defense.

For any other class that isn’t a paladin and makes minions I would say health then defense would likely be your best option. He may be a 3* but kvasir is a good example of where he’s right at the cut off and you could make the choice to go one way or the other.

The new red minion creator, noor I believe is her name, she can really benefit from a full health build.

[Abel]

@ManiacOfMayhem

For any other class that isn’t a paladin I would say health then defense would likely be your best option.

What about heroes from Atlantis Family(Poseidon, Triton, Mnesseus, Melia, etc). Since their family bonus is % DEF, can prioritizing DEF over Health for them work too?

(BTW thanks to everyone who dropped a link(s). I might go deeper on them later.)

[ManiacOfMayhem]

If they don’t make minions defense first for any tank.

Attack first then shield for any damage dealer.

[Peazomanco]

When HP is more useful:

When being healed.
When spawning minions.
Using and against riposte.
Health boosters.
Against Damage per turn (burn, posion…)
Facing defense debuffers (the higher defense, higher debuff)

When is better Defense:

Probably in the rest of situations.

---

There are some specific cases where the character is quite unbalanced itself that may consider giving health or defense.

[Abel]

@Peazomanco

When being healed.

A lot of people say this but I fail to see how. I understand the % of a higher health will be more health in numbers but less DEF means that number will be less valuable. Doesn’t this two just cancel each other out?
BTW if it’s not a % health, then DEF is simply better for healing. This is a simple truth.

@Peazomanco

When spawning minions.

Obviously if your hero is spawning minions for another hero. But is it necessarily more useful if the hero is spawning the minion for itself, as in the Druid Talent(Companion)? Getting back to my earlier question: Does the Druid class urge us to prioritize Health over DEF, just like Paladin class does the opposite?

[Utkuak]

@Abel

A lot of people say this but I fail to see how. I understand the % of a higher health will be more health in numbers but less DEF means that number will be less valuable.

I was going to bring up this point, so thank you for mentioning it. Setting aside DoT which bypasses defense, for regular direct damage defense stat acts as a sort of coefficient, scaling how much one point of health is worth in terms of durability/stamina. Telluria’s 153HP heal per turn will thus effectively heal a hero with 900 defense for more than a hero with 700 defense, as one point of HP will be worth “more”.

Using the damage formula presented here on the forum, I once calculated the ideal ratio between defense and health to maximize durability against direct damage. I believe the ratio I arrived at was: HP = ~1.475*DEF. Boril’s stat line is actually very close to this ratio. My thinking or math could be off though, so someone more knowledgeable feel free to correct me. People wanting to account for some DoT can aim for more HP than would be ideal purely from the perspective of direct damage. Troops and potential 20% defense bonus for defenders should also be taken into consideration of course.

[Mortegra]

You’re totally right. If Def is more beneficial to a heroes survivability than HP (which for nearly all heroes is true!), healing the hero with more Def also boosts its survivability more than healing a hero with more HP!

I also did these calculations. If the known damage formula is true (which I didn’t test myself and took as granted) and you ignore any other aspect than regular damage, chosing Def over HP is better as long as the HP/Def ration is above 1,475. (Technically it is no constant, it’s a bit lower if the heroes DEF is low and a bit higher if it’s high, but it’s in between 1,45 and 1,48) For practicability you can assume it’s 1,5. The higher this ratio gets, the higher the advantage of chosing DEF.

The only hero I can think of, where HP is superior to DEF, is Agnes! (and Boril is very close)

So, if the hero has unusual high DEF and low HP stats, you might sometimes want to chose HP for various reasons, but for most heroes, the increased survivability of buffing DEF will help you more than some minor effects higher HP would achieve.

HP is a little better
if the hero is spawning minions (only the creator! Minions on other heroes are stronger if their DEF is higher!)
against damage per turn
against DEF debuffers
when playing with riposte

On the other hand, DEF is better
when being healed in general, but especially if it is a heal over time or a fixed amount of HP or a health booster!
when the hero gets a minion from another heroes special
with DEF buffs

Another very important yet oftern overseen argument for choosing DEF are the troops: The widely used mana troops add up to 18% to a hero’s DEF, but nothing at all to its HP. (also crit troops add up to 25% DEF and only 9% HP)

So again, unless you really know what you’re doing and the HP/DEF ratio is not too far away from 1,5, you should always chose DEF!!!