"How better" is +18 DEF than +36 Health right now? In what cases it's resonable to go for the HP instead?

I still much prefer DEF over HP because of troops. Mana troops only increase DEF but not static HP, while crit troops always give a much bigger boost to DEF than HP, to the tune of ~3:1 DEF:HP at the higher levels and closer to 4:1 at the lower levels.

So short of a hypothetical card that was so imbalanced it had 400 DEF but 1600 HP, you always get a much bigger net boost to DEF over HP with either mana or crit troops, so I still prioritize DEF over HP if given the choice on the talent grid.

Exceptions to this being riposte heroes where more HP is usually better than higher DEF so you reflect more damage, and minion makes who can spawn ever so slightly beefier minions (but the benefit really is very negligible tbh since it’s usually 10-25% of an incremental 36 HP node).

Sonya is another contender for more HP over DEF (base stats 731 DEF 1011 HP, w/ CB 767 DEF 1112 HP) but the costume makes her stats a bit more balanced.

After doing some painful calculations (I left studying by 2003) It seems there is a slight difference in favor of defense. So I guess it depends on how heavy of healing you go or how strong are your defense buff.

There are other cases where hp is involved too: Specials like Kageburado´s that deals more or less damage when having 50% or more or those which or Ranvir´s. In this cases more health may be a problem (i don´t know If it´s calculated overf % of health or raw value)

Also when attacking in WE and you take arrows they deal % damage.

I think the easy way is aiming for sword or not sword :smiley:

I’d say Noor is a clear exception in regards to the value of going HP path over defense or attack.

Maxing her health over say defense/attack ends up with with a 144HP differntial , which is a 36HP difference per minion.

Per winning match (let’s say 80%), Noor would conservatively self summon twice and cast twice. So at 14 minions thats 504HP over the match.

Per losing match (other 20%), Noor would self-summon 3 times, or 108HP.

Averaging out the wins and losses thats 424.8HP difference over each match, which does have a fair impact (especially considering when the estimates given above are conservative).

People here who know far better than me may have a different opinion but for those two specifically I chose defence as my main priority. Can’t explain exactly why but low defense doesn’t often work out for me. Maybe it is just my limited roster.

Thanks for a great and clear post overall. This particular point is one that often frustrates me when I see people neglecting it entirely. Just like how attack and defense nodes become more valuable for heroes you know will be on your defense because of the invisible +20% bonus to those stats, if you know you’ll always be using a specific type of troop with a specific hero, say, a mana troop, then again attack and defense nodes gain additional value over health nodes because you know they’ll be getting a percentage based bonus while HP gets none. But then again even for crit troops the bonus is quite small, so only in very specific cases would HP be more beneficial than defense.

Setting aside purely theoretical talk, most people who have faced for example Horghall on defense can probably relate to how albeit he can look very beefy due to his ridiculous HP, he goes down much easier than you’d expect due to that disappointingly low defense stat.

Since I emblem heroes only for my defense and titans, the thinking process has always been simple for me. Non-aggressive tanks like Guin and Telluria try to maximize defense, then HP, all other (aggressive, non-support) defenders prioritize attack, then defense. My titan heroes all prioritize attack, then defense, since my only goal there really is to raise their attack stat. For healers with costumes like Kiril and Boldtusk I do try to avoid picking the healing bonus node on either costume and avoid attack nodes if possible for their version not used against titans, so sometimes there’s a bit of a compromise being struck where deemed necessary and worthwhile.

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You have to understand that there is a difference in creating a minion for herself and for someone else!

The minions created for other heroes are beefier if you choose HP. And these HP are “defended” with the heroes DEF they belong to. But the minions for herself survive better when you choose DEF. It’s analogical to healing/health boost: The spawned minion has a bit less health, but the higher DEF outweighs this difference!

So yes, for heroes who create minions for teammembers, you can lean a bit in favor of HP, but especially for Noor who creates additional minions for herself, you have to give this aspect less weight!

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If something takes a percentage of a heroes HP (like arrows), it effectively takes this percentage of its total survivability no matter whether you chose HP or DEF. You have to realize that a point of HP is worth more if the heroes DEF is higher.

As noted earlier, the same is true for %-heals. A hero with more HP will be healed for more HP, but every single HP is worth a bit less if the hero has less DEF. And for almost all heroes the additional value per HP when chosen DEF is worth more than the additional “unbuffed” HP when chosen HP! (this 1,475-ratio!)

Concerning Kageburado: Of course he will be able to sometimes use his special to its full potential because its target has more survivability. But you cannot plan this and for sure, you won’t intentionally create worse hero because of that. :wink:

It all comes down to how many minions are created. As per my estimates it would be 2 self minions vs 10 special minions, so the HP to all would far outweigh the DEF to self

I have done some calculations of tile damage (heavy stack 5x800 vs 800 def and 5x800 vs 782) and the results with 18 points of defense were around 10 points. 4 tiles were enough to turn the balance in favor of defense.
When the attack is quite lower the difference of damage between the extra defense and no extra def is reduced
2x800 vs 800 (84.9) and 2x800 vs 782 (87.6) per tile 3 damage x tile or 10 per slash attack of difference.

Under certain circumstances defense will be stronger under other health will be better. Most of those circumstances are out of your control.

For example, if you go mono with Boldtusk and Grazul I´d prefer health over defense. I you green with C-Melendor I´d go defense

The total survivability of a hero doesn’t change whether a small tile or a strong special is incoming. The difference caused by more DEF is the same per lost HP. Of course the difference matters less when Margaret does her wimpy damage, but so do the lost HPs.

The method I used is the percentual gain in total survivability when adding 18 DEF or 36 HP.

For DEF, you can use the formula %gainDEF= ((DEF+18)/DEF)^1,35-1
For HP, it’s %gainHP=(HP+36)/HP-1

Then you will see that %gainDEF=%gainHP at a HP/DEF-ratio around 1,475.

Of course, often it doesn’t matter because the finishing strike is deadly whether you would have chosen HP or DEF, but if this ratio is above 1,475 and only normal damage is involved, DEF will always be superior. (i.e.: you will sometimes survive a crucial blow only when you’ve chosen DEF, but you will never survive such a hit with HP you wouldn’t have survived with DEF too!)

So the ATK of the Defending team also gets boosted by %20? Not just the DEF?

That is correct…

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I think lot of people are doing wrong with the emblems path. People usually choose shield than hp. I think hp is better option. The game itself tries to give you a clue as to which one is better, minions inherited hp and war defense points comes with hp. I’m right?

And for costumed emblem path, you can get both sides to match if you use your head.

HP are suitable only for minion creators, reflect/counterattack heroes. And yes more hp mean more points for opponent for killing you.

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No I think hp is better option for all heroes

No, HP is not always the best option. Take Azlar as example. When he fires, he is a beast. However, being slow, a Lianna can one-shot him easily. This is why a shield talent might help him more than HP would do.

You don’t have Azlar’s costume, that path won’t match with the costume

I wish I could explain better, I’m not English

My Azlar

I usually choose Hp or Shield depend on hero stat. When I want to emblem Hp or Shield, I try I keep Def/Hp ratio around 0.5 to 0.6. From my experience, I think it is the best way to increase toughness. Too high Hp or Shield isn’t good. From my experience, Shield is better against tile attack, slash attack, minion attack but Hp is better against skill damage, counter attack and DoT.

If I have Azlar costume, I will emblem him 211 233 21123 211 233 232 or 211 233 21123 211 211 232. But if you have level 23 mana troop, choose +2% mana is better than +2% Cri.