# Mana buffs and stacking

Hi everyone, new to forum, been playing nearly a year and signed up specifically to make this one post!

Has anyone done research into stacking mana buffs?

What I mean is I know the different tiers where mana troops reduce tiles needed.

Now that we can us Troops, Emblems, Sakura family, and Seshat’s (and presumably 4 more to come) Elemental links along with various other specials. Are there additional tiers available?

Would a 4% elemental link and a 9% mana troop be cumulative and function as a 13% buff or multiplicative so mana x 1.04 x 1.09?

Trying to figure out optimum teams and obviously the difference between 1 tile can often be firing a special and winning, or losing.

Thanks in advance for any info!

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I took BT to level 19. Meant 2% mana boost. Together with level 17 mana troops 11%. Put together its a 13% mana speed boost. Just enough to get him to 9 tiles.

Stacks in this case.

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If it stacks that’d give you +13%, if it’s multiplicative it would still give you Net +13.22% so either way a 9 tile build. What are the net %'s needed to drop tiers by 1, maybe even 2 tiles?

If someone can explain the exact mana generation for 1 tile for a VF, F, A, S, VS hero I’m happy to crunch the numbers.

Just thought I can look at how attack works with troops, ele link, and BT buff which I assume would be the same but give me readable numbers.

There are a bunch of threads on it here on the forum that explains it in detail.

But the TLDR; response is that its additive.

And here is a bit of math

So say you have a purple fast hero with a lvl11 mana troop(9%), Seshats elemental link(4%), the mana talent(2%) and Ariels buff (24%) and you hit with 4x purple tiles.

You would get 4×1 + 4×0.09 + 4×0.04 + 4×0.02 + 4×0.24 = 4x1.39 = 5.56 “units” of mana from those 4 tiles.

And a fast hero needs 8 “units” to get to 100%

And here are soom reference values

VF = 6.5 units
F = 8 units
A = 10 units
S = 12 units
VS = 13.5 units

Thanks,

Do you have any links to the threads with exact details? I looked but couldn’t find one with all the information.

Looking at what happens with Attack from the exact same buffs in the same situation I just got these numbers.

Hero . . . .Original |Talents| |Troop| |In Game| |With Ele link| |With Atk buff|
|Khiona| . . |739| . |769| . |20%| . |922| . |922+46| . |922+461|

This looks like anything that happens with Talents happens first, then troops which give you new stats to start a fight with, during the fight it then appears as if the 5% ele link and 45% atk is stacked to a 50% atk boost meaning the atk calculation is.

((Base Atk + Emblem Atk) * Troop Atk %) = In Game Attack.
Overall Attack = In game attack * (Ele link Atk% + Atk Buff%)

Let’s now take a Very fast hero which requires 6.5 units, That means their gauge fills by 15.384% per tile.
Is it possible that the same mechanics for atk apply to mana generation?

As of so far it is accepted that a 9% increase is needed from 11* troops. 15.384% * 1.09 = 16.76 Which * 6 = 100.6% so a 6 tile build works here.

WHAT IF

A hero has the +4% talent, would that bump a VF hero up to getting exactly 16% a hit. Add on 5% troops and it’s 16.80% a tile
A hero has the +2% talent, would that bump a VF hero up to getting 15.69% a hit. then add on 7% troops and it’s 16.79

All 3 of these would give a 6 tile build and the numbers look very similar but there is a variance.

If this is true then the calculation would be…

(Base Tile %) * (Talent%) = (Hero Generation%)

(Hero Generation%) * (Troop Generation) = (Initial in game Generation)

(Initial in game generation) * (Ele Link generation + Special Generation) = Actual generation

Using the example in the post above with stating a fast hero needs 8 units, that means a fast hero generates 12.5% mana gauge a tile. with a +39% generation from Talent, troops, ele link, ariel buff.

That would put it on 17.375% a tile meaning you’d need 6 tiles to get to 104.25%

Using the calculation I’ve suggested…

12.5%*1.02 = 12.75%
12.75%*1.09=13.8975%
13.8975% * (1+0.4+0.24) = 17.7888% a tile

With 6 hits from this you’d be on 106.7328%

I appreciate with these numbers you’d still be on a 6 tile build either way but there would be a difference. With a different combination of factors there would be a direct tile difference in the builds.

I’m sorry, but I dont quite undestand what you’re asking.

But here is a link to a post regarding mana breakpoints that might get your going in the right direction.

I’m effectively asking if we’re 100% sure it’s additive and not multiplicative. (Atk, def, hp is all multiplicative) Thus far with few ways of increasing the mana the results would have been the same either way. With new ways to boost mana we could actually be getting different results.

Alright! Then I understand, I havent seen any evidence to support that mana generation would be multiplicative. Everything so far points towards additive, but it could be based on old data and ultimately be wrong.

Maybe someone can provide you with more details or point you in the right direction.
@zephyr1 @Garanwyn

The mana buffs are additive with each other, but that quantity is them multiplied times the base mana gain amount.

So if you are at Average mana (10 tiles to fill), and have a 4% mana boost and a 2% mana boost, the gain from a tile will be:

(1/10)*(1 + 4% + 2%)

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Hi Garawyn, I agree it is almost certain that mana buffs like a 4% ele link and 24% are added to make a 28% mana buff. That has always been agreed.

My question is when talents or troops are involved is it still simply added. If yes then what is the evidence? Have the devs stated it is all simply added together then applied in one go or has someone used data to prove that it’s all simply added?

Yes.

Direct observation of when tiles fill mana on offense.

There is almost nothing the devs give that kind of clear, unambiguous info on.

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Sorry I really don’t mean to come across as arguing with my first post on the forum especially with a mod but direct observation is not evidence of it being additive because in the examples mentioned so far it being multiplicative would have given the same observable results.

So realistically the current belief is “it’s addictive because the results we’re seeing work when we add the mana buffs”

Realistically we need some data that would have different outcomes to be able to observe this. FYI I’m not saying it is multiplicative but right now we are still basing it on theory.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is generally impolite to assume that everyone in an entire community collectively is incapable of performing a fairly basic investigation into a trivially simple engineering question, or that we can’t distinguish what different types of data might imply.

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The current theory works. Thus, like science, that is the theory we use. If you doubt it, it is up to you to prove an alternative theory. Come up with a scenario where your alternative theory gives a different answer from the current theory, and then test it in the game. Again, like science.

BTW direct observation is the most basic of proofs of any theory.

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As I said, I’m certainly not trying to argue or be rude especially not in my first ever post and to a mod. As above poster said the solution is to find an example where it doesn’t work.

That is the whole reason I’m posting, I’m looking for some help to prove the calculation one way or another. As Nevarmaor said it’s down to me to prove it and I will try to do that. I’ve spent ages typing up the maths in the posts above if what I’ve said is wrong then please tell me.

It’s not so much that it’s wrong as it doesn’t diverge from the current formula enough to prove one or the other. Where one shows 17.375% per tile and the other shows 17.7888% per tile there is no way to determine observationally which is true. You need to find a situation where one gives one more (or less) tile decrease than the other, and then figure out how to achieve that situation in the game to test it out. That’s probably a pretty tall order. It would take a LOT of mana buffing to achieve that.

Since the current additive formula works so far there is little incentive to go hunting for an alternative. This is just as true in science as in the game.

Thanks for the feedback, I’m flying in 4 hours and have my first Holiday in 4 years so am putting a pin in this and will crunch numbers once back.