How a super talent saves a small part of the game from being completely irrelevant

Gameplay Help & Tactics
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Wasn´t sure what title to use, if anyone can come up with a better one, let me know. Now there is a rather long philosophical prestory to this post, but I will save that for another time, here is the practical result that came out in the end of this process:

Superior revive (as annoying as that thing is) is actually saving a few heroes from being completely irrelevant! Take C2 Vivica as an example, if you read that hero card she must be completely irrelevant in todays fast game! Everybody knows how completely pointless slow heroes are these days, how come she annoys the heck out of us that many times?

Well fact is: Slow speed is written on her card, but in reality that is a lie! She is not actually a slow hero!

Worst case for any hero is that they die before they fire, right? So let´s assume that as a standard for a slow hero (after all that´s the reason why nobody plays slow heroes anymore).

So to make the numbers more simple and decimal places really don´t matter for what I am going to say let´s say revival chance is 33% instead :slight_smile:

A slow hero needs 12 tiles to charge fully.Gaining 50% mana means 6 tiles worth of mana. A 33% chance for 6 tiles means on average 2 tiles which coincidentally turns her from slow into average speed!
So even though the speed printed on the card says slow, she really is an average speed healer! And for average speed she is not useless anymore :slight_smile:

Of course in reality she will never be average speed, instead she´ll hop back and forth between slow speed (2 out of 3 times) and a super fast (faster than very fast) 6 tile charge (1 out of 3 times). Additionally she´ll become the fastest hero in the game 1 out of 9 times (double revive) which is a zero tile charge.

And yes I know it isn´t exactly how it works, because if the hero dies exactly before she fires, there is a zero mana gain case, which would have to be calculated into the averages as well, but what I really want to say with all this is simply: Super revive is not just an annoying revive, but it is in reality a speed boost that is much bigger than many other speed boosts (like a 5% costume bonus etc)!

How does this look for other speed groups?

First of all: It is less likely that fast heroes die before they fire, which means this calculation becomes much less relevant, but lets assume bad boards and our fast heroes die before they fire.

Average charges in 10 tiles: So 33% of 5 tiles is 1.66 tiles which makes an average speed hero charge in 8.33 tiles not quite a fast one (8 tiles).

Fast heroes charge in 8 tiles: 33% of 4 tiles is 1.33 tiles which does make a fast hero charge in 6.66 tiles which is nearly very fast (6.5 tiles)

Very fast heroes ( I doubt there is a very fast super fighter, but eventually that stuff will spill to other heroes besides S1) charge in 6.5 tiles: 33% of 3.25 tiles is roughly 1.1 tiles which then charges the hero in 5.4 tiles which is somewhere in the realm of 1st charge speed.

Have fun with your super fighters knowing that you definitely beat any speed records set for by other slow heroes :smiley:

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yeah, Superior Revive is really really useful. I hate fighting against it (regular Revive was already annoying enough)… I have benefitted from it too, with C-Joon reviving and charging and taking out an enemy… :slight_smile:

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I do think the superior revive is probably the top talent on defense, and maybe top 4 in offense. If you dont account for it in defense somehow (eg mindless attack) it can singlehandedly lose a match for you.

But i strongly disagree that there is no place for slow heroes in the game and c c viv is particularly good. She is my best hero and has helped me win 23 of my last 24 raids with this team, in low to mid diamond

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In war she helped get 3 bounces so far. Its a roughly top 2k alliance

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She is my tank in regular defense where she can only hold about 2.2 to 2.3k cups, but she is not emblemed or lbd and a purely passive tank will generally struggle. The superior revive talent in this case would help a lot .

Slows have a place even against the most op defenses, if used with good synergy. An all slow heavily stacking team would likely lose to a fast op defense team, yes agree on that. But on my main account i can take an all slow close to rainbow team and beat most mid diamond teams

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The most irritating healer to face on defence

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I think you need to re-read the post and maybe think about it for a bit?

The whole point of the post was to say: A slow hero with super-revive is not a slow hero at all. It is an average speed hero. So you cannot come in a say C2 Viv is proving me wrong, when I explicitly used her to prove my point lol.

Vivica is irrelevant, C2Vivica is not, because she is bumped up a whole speed class. She (on average) charges as fast as an average speed healer and therefore is no longer irrelevant.

No, absolutely not, your synergy doesn´t matter whatsoever, no slow hero will fire against a current top defense, he will be dead long before the text on his card matters. If you haven´t actually seen a current top level defense in action: Right now there was 7DD against TK war going on, there´ll be plenty of videos. I guess this week they still use M&M tanks, so a def has M&M and then a rather random assortment of 4 Anne/Jove/CPanther/Ogima. Next week the M&M will be gone, probably they´ll just do 5 of the above and skip the whole tank thing. Or maybe a Bastet which fits in with that lot anyway…

Right now against these top defenses the question is whether you can find 7 tiles before you die or not. Finding 12 (or 11 or whatever you need for your slow heroes) is out of the question. With a bad board people can´t even find the 4 tiles to charge their Ninjas.

Yes slow heroes are “relevant” against slow defs. No argument from me. Against a bad defense everything is relevant though, the whole point disappears. That is not the definition of relevant I was going for. I apologize I should have been more exact in terminology.
My post was a theoretical construct, but I cut it short (not very well obviously) to make it at least somewhat readable for people with an above average attention span (most will probably give up after 3 or 4 sentences anyway, if they ever bother starting at all).
With theoretical I mean unlimited availability of all heroes. So in reality a step above top level play.

In such a theoretical world, all heroes of slow speed are entirely irrelevant, also 99% of all average speed heroes are irrelevant. The simple reason for that is the existence of CPanther;Jove, Anne etc. There is no reason to have any hero of a speed slower than fast since all you need is already accomplished at fast speed. The current standard is: 3 heroes and 7 tiles to end the game. What point is there to having a team where you need more than 3 heroes or more than 7 tiles to accomplish the same?
The 1% i exempted above are the 2 support heroes (the luxury given by the fact that you only need 3 heroes to win), they have a separate relevance section, well healers by now are also fast, but usually teams do better with 1 healer and 1 other supporter (especially taunt) and that part of heroes still had a lack of fast heroes, so taunters were the relevant avg speed heroes, until Oniwakamaru arrived. Now those are blown out as well.

Same point as above. Anything goes if you exclude the top 50k players.

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My C C Viv wasn’t emblemed… hence didn’t fall into your point at all

I think this clearly shows otherwise

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I draw my hat to you for playing that team with such success, I don´t think I would have predicted as decent results as you had. Kudos for using heroes that are widely considered as garbage! I am impressed.

But as to “meta defense” well I don´t see much there. I think the most I saw was 2 teams that had 3 meta defense heroes and none of those had a meta tank. Beyond that a few more teams with 2 meta def heroes. And if I remember a total of 1 meta tank (M&M) on one of those teams?.
Towards the end certainly nothing worth being afraid of attacking for anyone.

Maybe I should have defined the word meta: When I say meta I mean the best currently possible, not just above average or having a few scary heroes. So I would say the defense meta has between 5 and 10 possible heroes even including M&M which definitely still was meta at the time of the video.