@Zack this is the part I missed and why it wasn’t making sense. No clue how I overlooked it, I must have just been distracted by the chart.
I couldn’t figure out how you were getting those calculations on it so that’s why I was trying to come up with my own method but now I understand. God I’m dumb sometimes.
Why is Fast for a 4* not 898?
NVM you mean round down the rarity factor and I kept wanting to round the final value
I hurt my own brain sometimes.
Okay this is where we left off and not realizing how you were doing the math totally threw me off but now I get it. So you want me to do these tests for 5* 4* and 3*?
I just want to make sure you haven’t progressed into doing them yet and I’ll knock them out fast.
Sorry my head has been messed up this week. I just lost my dog on Oct 4th and I’ve been an emotional wreck. I’ve been trying to keep my chocolate entertained and make sure he is supported as well since she practically raised him since he was 7 weeks old.
@Zack I would like to propose a simple test, which I am sadly not able to do myself, but maybe you can:
Does Magic Charge 2 charge in 11 hitting tiles, no ghosting, with +12% mana bonus (8% from magic/styx troops + 4% talent)?
If I followed this topic correctly, then +12% should result in 10 MP overspill from charge 1 with 5 tiles and charging of the rest with 6 tiles. Correct?
555 first tier
680 second tier
1235 total
1235/112%=1102
May be an additional -22% Mana Multiplier on defense
Ghosting doesn’t apply to defense. It also depends on which combo these tiles hit defender or if you’re talking offense then that’s just 12.3 tiles to tier 2 magic.
12.3/ 112%=10.9 So 11 tiles would do the job yes
Offensive mana I know like the back of my hand
You will also see in the very beginning of that row which is the second row on Magic 2 that 12% is exactly what is needed for that tier to be achieved in 11 tiles.
Thank you! It is indeed great to finally able to get this right and to make precise calculations that reduce the amount of tests by a lot, all while the results perfectly match the predictions. \ 
/
And it’s all because of this thread 
Right! The magic1 and styx 1 should be simple to verify. Same with the Tides, except that I’ll probably have to rely on @G_H_O_S_T for this since my alliance lacks 5* tide heroes and finding a suitable target in the wild is very hard nowadays.
For styx2 and magic 2 let’s see what we can do with our limited options. I already thought of some extensions to our options, like tactical application of -5% from the new mages or cutting 10% or 20% mana.
Since we know that 5* get 75 MP per combo1 tile we may also use this to set up a wild fight, if necessary. 
The combo2 tile I think could also be relatively - keyword: relatively - easy to investigate. The combo3 will be matter of luck though.
The rounding of the final result is totally intuitive and I think everybody would go with this, but my one test with Alfrike charging with 1576 MP instead of 1578 MP claimed that the calculation is a tiny bit different.
I already had rounding issues in the past with the DoT formula - often slightly off by a tiny bit. So here I simply tried some different rounding and got lucky that this now fits perfecly. 
Sorry for your loss, bro - this will throw off anybody for a while.
Yes, please!
It should be okay to only check the 4* for now, if they get the 75 MP per combo1 tile as well. If yes, then the 3* will surely also get 75 MP per combo1 tile. If not, we will have to investigate 3* for this as well.
Can you also test the 5* tide hero with a friendly battle, if they charge with 934 for the fast speed and 933 is insufficient, and that they charge with 1168 for the average speed and 1167 is insufficient?
I’m afraid that I would have to try and hunt in gold arena for a suitable target (to be able to ensure the mana generation bonus) and that type of hunting was not easy last year and got worse now with the double limit breaks - I need to be able to clearly identify, if a target has the mana node or not.
For Changing Tides mana speed, it seems from my data that the “uneven” (first, third, fifth…) mana bars require 800mp (this indeed matches fast mana speed; FYI 1400mp for PvE bosses) but for the even charges (second, fourth, sixth…), it’s not actually 1000mp (like average) but again, like mana speeds with charges, it’s still 800mp with a -25% mana generation modifier (so with no mana generation bonus, it makes it actually 10.67 tiles to charge on offense).
So now I have the data for the 5* slayer speed:
Rian with 0% mana generation bonus gets his 10 stacks for +50% mana generation bonus, then gets mana from 6 regular turns, 1 turn with -24% and 3 turns with -64% for a total of 1284 mana points.
1284 = 600 x 1.5 + 100 x (1.5 - 0.24) + 300 x (1.5 - 0.64)
Will he actually be charged with 1284 MP? drumroll
Yes, for sure! 
=> 5* slayer speed is charged with 1284 MP, as predicted
Yes, can do. Here it is:
Ray with 12% mana generation bonus from styx troops level 7 (+8%) and class (+4%) gets mana from 2+3 tiles and then 6 tiles. I repeated this test since you asked for no ghosting and in my first test I ghosted 3 tiles for the 6 tiles first.
=> Ray is charged with 5 tiles, then 3 ghosted tiles, i.e. with 682 MP or 552 550 MP
Second test with 5, then 6 regular tiles:
=> Ray is charged with 5 tiles, then 6 tiles, i.e. with 682 MP or 552 550 MP
Yeah I can test any heroes you want my alliance is fully equipped
Tides 1 - I will confirm 934 achieves special and 933 is insufficient
Tides 2 - I will confirm 1168 achieves special and 1167 is insufficient
No, it should still be 934mp just like uneven tides but with an hidden mana generation modifier of -25% just like magic charge 2 is still 550mp (before applying the rarity factor for heroes on defense) but with an hidden -22% modifier or Styx 2 and 3 still 600mp with a +100% modifier. This has been verified by @Zack above for Styx charge 2 and partially for magic charge 2 and Styx charge 3 on offense.
I’m just going off what Zack said for Changing Tides Fast/Average 5* Hero @Elioty33
Changing Tides Heroes Mana doesn’t overflow into each other like the others. You’re saying there’s still a multiplier?
Yes, there is no overflow issue because their special skill have only one charge like everyone except ninja, magic and Styx heroes but they have only one base max mana of 800mp and an hidden -25% mana generation modifier for even “mana bar” / eventh times you charge their mana bar (don’t know how to word exactly but you got my point I think). The game doesn’t give them different max mana depending on the parity of the current “mana bar” / next special skill activation but only one single value of 800mp.
If you don’t take into consideration this modifier, it will work fine when they are no other mana generation buff/ailment and you will get an “tile equivalent” value but it will deviate once you try to factor in mana generation buffs/ailments.
I’m just confused why Zack didn’t mention this if he did the math already and confirmed it. I’m just going off the numbers he told me but I’m going to study what you’re saying now and I can add in mana gen that’s not a problem. Thanks for the heads up!
I get what you’re saying they use that to make the changing tides relevant because they expect you to use something to boost mana regardless. However if you don’t boost your mana it will remain at 800 MP. Since people are going to be using mana troops with these heroes I should probably do my calculations with the mana increase as well That way I give those numbers instead of skewed no mana based numbers that nobody would actually run. I think I understand you.
Zack said that just before I gave the details about the Changing Tides mana speed. And for the 1168, it’s just 1000*1.168 based on the assumption that even Changing Tides are actually average speed like advertised by the tooltip in game but they are not. On offense with no mana generation modifier, they take 11 tiles to charge actually (which matches 800 / (100 - 25) = 10.67 tiles).
So do I factor in a mana troop? What MP value am I going for? 1067?
You need to factor in every mana generation modifiers like always, just that’s there is an extra hidden -25% for even Changing Tides.
800. Just like magic charges 1 and 2 are both 550mp and styx charges 1, 2 and 3 are all 600mp.
So I want 801 MP and not achieve a special and 800 with special. Then I want to do it with tiles once I’ve confirmed that to confirm the tile value?
For this multiplier that you’re talking about do you want me to have a mana bonus to bring that multiplier into effect? Or all of the above?
If you want to test Changing Tides, I would suggest to do it on Offense first.
Here are some breakpoint assumptions for that:
And one more test for Magic on offense:
0% Mana Bonus at all, 5 tiles hitting the enemy, 6th tile ghosted, how many more hitting tiles to get to the 2nd charge loaded?
Assumption is 6 tiles.
Repeat the former test with 2% Mana Bonus.
Now the assumption is 5 tiles!
Yes, I know, that that is only a total of 12! 
But prove me wrong! 
You meant 799mp not charged and 800 charged, right?
Yes, do it with tiles as an attacker, easier to play around.
The hidden -25% mana generation is always in effect on even mana bars for Changing Tides mana speed. You don’t need other status effect to trigger it.
