Okay so we decided to go with Mana Points instead of turns. I made a chart that has all the speeds that shows how many MP are needed for every hero as a baseline to obtain their special ability. Next to that you will see a individual number that represents how many turns that hero will fire in based on that MP need. I keep changing it as I go just trying to find the right structure of organization and understanding that can simplify this for people to not only understand but use with ease.
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Never mind it’s not even worth it. You got to live with yourself I can live with who I am no problem. I come on here to help people and I’m going to continue doing that.
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For the time being this should be helpful and statistically accurate. I have been able to determine much more information I’m even aware of how to apply it into a spreadsheet that isn’t overwhelming. I’ll add a little bit of that information as well after the chart that still has more work than I can even imagine left to do.
What is value of a tile that makes contact with a defender by percentage? Well I took the time to calculate what .75 turns translates into as a percentage so that people are capable of even determining how many tiles in addition to their mana bonus will be required to improve the speed of their hero and determine the likelihood and probability of that happening successfully.
VF - 9.9%
F - 8.02%
A - 6.45%
S - 5.34%
VS - 4.75%
M1 - 11.56%
M2 - 5.21%
S1 - 10.68%
S2 - 7.12%
S3 - 5.34%
C1 - 13.07%
C2 - 6.53%
C3 - 4.35%
SL - 5.82%
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I’m going to do this part separate because it’s complete guess and cannot truly be known. This is because it’s dependent upon the individual player, board layout, situational game scenarios and a ton of other potential variables that could affect it. I believe that over four turns any ability that requires eight or more turns to achieve will be reduced by tiles making contact at each position:
Wing - Over four turns I believe a hero at this position will achieve it’s special ability 1 turn faster than chart calculation. (That is approximately two tiles over four turns)
Flank - Over four turns I believe a hero in the flank position will achieve its special ability 2-3 turns faster than chart calculations. (That is approximately three to four tiles over four turns)
Tank - over four turns I believe a hero at this position will achieve its special ability 4 turns faster than chart calculations. (That is approximately six tiles over four turns)
While the amount of tiles each hero will take is completely unknown and different in every circumstance, This is more of a probable likelihood and definitely nothing near or even close to being called a certainty. It’s something to keep in mind, but not something to expect. So I hope that is very clear that this is a complete guess and in some cases will be very accurate and in others completely not even close to the truth.
If a match of three tiles is made every turn over four turns, That would be 12 tiles. My calculations are at 14 tiles and based on war attacks where usually people are being cautious to not create cascades or give the defense any more mana than needed. That is the equivalent of two matches of three tiles and two matches of four tiles over four turns. Hoping this isn’t confusing, but some people may be thrown off by how much slower their heroes are defensively and not taken to account the fact that they can become much faster through tiles making contact.
This is merely just food for thought about what is possible and nothing more.
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The result is rounded down after each step, so it should be
fast 1* = 800 mana (confirmed)
fast 2* = 832 mana
fast 3* = 865 mana
fast 4* = 899 mana
fast 5* = 934 mana
This rounding down after each step is confirmed by the exact fit for the 5* ninja charge 1 with 572 mana and for the slow 5* with 1401 mana.
I aim to check the exact values for each mana speed and for 5* and 4*, and maybe even for 3*, if possible.
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So I need to round down first?
Can’t do Speed(1.04)³ for example?
I wonder if I did that damn it!!!
They’re so few levels that you can actually test at for something like that
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Got confirmation now that fast 5* charge in 9.34 turns (= 8 .
Here’s the screenshots for my regular Freya 4-80 with 25% mana generation bonus from a magic troop 29 (+20%) and Phenexa (+5%).
=> Freya didn’t charge in 9.33 turns = 6 x 1.25 + 3 x (1.25 - 0.64)
I messed up yesterday when checking the battle and somehow overlooked that the mana debuff was applied correctly to Freya, so I repeated the battle with a different setup today, which gave the exact result, of course. (Jabberwock with +25% from class (4%), mana troop11 (9%) and family (+12%), with Shrubbear, Phoenicus, diamond captain and costume White Rabbit). Now I wonder how I could overlook this… 
Too much stress at work maybe, but now I have double evidence. 
Here it is:
Jabberwock isn’t charged in 9.33 turns = 6 x 1.25 + 3 x (1.25 - 0.64)
Next is a Zimkitha 4-80+20 with +18% mana generation from mana troops11 (+9%), class (+4%) and Zhabog (+5%).
Zimkitha charged in 9.34 turns = 7 x 1.18 + 2 x (1.18 - 0.64)
Same happened with a Gefjon 1-1 with +18% mana generation bonus from mana troops23 (+13%) and Zhabog (+5%), who charged in 9.34 turns = 7 x 1.18 + 2 x (1.18 - 0.64)
Defense max Mana calculation
I found a way to get the very slow (1350 mana = 13.5 turns) 5* defenders to reach 1576:
First I multiply the factor 1.04 with itself and round down to 3 digits. Then I multiply this factor with the initial value of that hero speed, i.e. 800 in case of a fast hero, or 1350 for a very slow hero, and round down to full digits.
This gives slight differences in the results:
| Path 1 | Path 1 | Path 2 | Path 2 | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| factor | mana | factor | mana | ||
| 1 | 1350 | 1350 | |||
| 2 | 1,04 | 1404 | 1,04 | 1404 | |
| 3 | 1,04 | 1460 | 1,081 | 1459 | |
| 4 | 1,04 | 1518 | 1,124 | 1517 | |
| 5 | 1,04 | 1578 | 1,168 | 1576 |
For the fast heroes that would look as follows:
| Path 1 | Path 1 | Path 2 | Path 2 | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| factor | mana | factor | mana | ||
| 1 | 800 | 800 | |||
| 2 | 1,04 | 832 | 1,04 | 832 | |
| 3 | 1,04 | 865 | 1,081 | 864 | |
| 4 | 1,04 | 899 | 1,124 | 899 | |
| 5 | 1,04 | 934 | 1,168 | 934 |
Now I want to see how fast the fast defending 3* charge - what happens with 864 mana? 
Who wants to test?
fast 3* on defense with +8% mana generation. No tiles hitting that 3* during 8 turns and no other mana effects = 8 x 1.08 = 8.64
=> I suggest Jack on a wing with no class bonus and no other family member (+3%), equipped with mana troops1 (+5%)
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Oh great. Thank you for refining my formula in a way it also matches your very precise observations 
We weren’t far from the truth but I now think that this is it, you put the last piece to complete the puzzle. 
The passively generated mana on defense is totally figured out. And it actually kind of makes sense the game would compute the factor first for the given hero’s rarity before applying it to the hero’s max mana point value instead of applying the base factor (1.040) recursively.
Again, thank you for your great and righteous dedication on this matter. All I did was to dig into the game to catch the values but couldn’t figure out the exact formula to use them.
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Zack am I missing something or are you testing with sorcerers?
Looks like to me that they all have a mana reduction. Am I missing something?
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Charge 1 - 574 MP - 75 MP for 1 First Match Tile
Serendite Ninja Troop 0%
Talent Grid Bonus 0%
Total Mana Bonus 0%
MP Required 499 or 5 Turns
Charge 1 - 574 MP - 0 Tiles
Serendite Ninja Troop 0%
Talent Grid Bonus 0%
Total Mana Bonus 0%
MP Required 574 or 6 Turns
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That is correct, we had to use Mist’s special on the target there to apply the -64% mana generation debuff for 2 and 3 turns, respectively, to achieve the 9.34 and 9.33 turns of mana. No tiles hit the target though, so the only mana source for the target is still turns.
With just the variations for the mana bonuses of the target you can only do so much. To achieve certain mana values only from turns the only possibility I found was to use specials on the target and apply a variation of mana debuffs.
-24% (Orla), -34% (Treevil), -50% (C-Proteus) and -64% (Mist) are available to me and have some survivability.
(Goopy is unreliable, Chochin too squishy, Alfie works only against yellows, Ingolf is unreliable, Ulius is not optimal, all Styx heroes are unreliable, Frank and Skadi are unreliable, Morax is too squishy at 1-1, the new mages might be interesting with their -5% or -10%)
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New data is in for the fast 3* with 8% mana generation bonus:
My Jack has 8% from the mana troops level 1 (+5%) and the family bonus (+3% as he is alone)
When charging only with mana from turns he will get 864 mana during 8 turns (864= 800 x 1.08).
With the previous 1.04-factor formula he should not be charged yet, as he would need 865 mana.
With the new 1.04-factor formula he should be charged from the 864 mana.
result: Jack is charged after 8 turns, so 864 mana is enough for him.
=> this 864 for fast 3* heroes and the 1576 for very slow 5* heroes are strong support for the new formula
I think so too, it fits so well, but I would like to test a little bit more, especially the average 5*.
The formula says that average 5* need 1168 mana.
1168 mana can be achieved with 10 regular turns with 12% mana generation and then 1 turn with -64% from Mist: 1168 = 1000 x 1.12 + 100 x (1.12 - 0.64)
or with 7 regular turns with 27% mana generation and 3 turns with -34% from Treevil
The 1167 is more difficult:
- 1167 can be achieved with 7 regular turns with 35% mana generation and 2 turns with -24% from Orla: 1167 = 700 x 1.35 + 2 x (1.35 - 0.24)
- or with 6 regular turns with 17% mana generation and 5 turns with -24% from Orla and Chochin:
1167 = 6 x 1.17 + 5 x (1.17 - 0.24) - or with 9 regular turns with 15% mana generation, 1 turn with -64% from Mist and 1 turn with -34% from Treevil: 1167 = 9 x 1.15 + 1 x (1.15 - 0.64) + 1 x (1.15 - 0.34)
We’re close!
But what about the tiles? How sure are we about the 75 mana per combo1 tile?
And the 65 for combo2? 55 for combo3?
Or 67.5 tiles for combo2? 60.75 tiles for combo3?
Or 67.5 tiles for combo2? 54 tiles for combo3?
This is gonna be a nightmare to test! 
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Tell me what you need from me I don’t want to have us doing the same stuff. Use me Zack use me!!! Lol
Thank you for all your hard work bro
I have been feeding tiles in calculating results with the tiles and they’re coming up pretty consistent on the original measurement that we had.
I got one up to like a combo 10 plus and it looks like at about 5 MP it just stops and remains constant at that point but I’m still trying to fully understand and then find values in which are one or two points away from each other and being able to use different combinations to find the exact number in pinpoint just how much they are worth.
As of right now from what I’ve seen so far I would say the 75 MP is pretty spot on if not just a little bit off It’s it’s damn close
With the old calculation of 574 MP for charge one I fed Serendite One tile exactly just to see if it was enough at 499 for the hero to fire in five turns in which it was. There’s ever so slightly just a small little extra bit of Mana gained towards tier 2, which I can run the same test with the new configuration and find a way to combo one tile into serendite until I figure out just exactly what that number is and then cross-test it with other speeds
Here are screenshots for a raid battle from 23.10.2022 with a 5* Ninja on defense, a Ruby 4-80+7 with 7% mana generation bonus from the mana troops level 9.
During the battle Ruby fired her special, then she got mana for that turn. My Mist then applied the -64%, then again to achieve 4 turns of -64% in total. Then my Treevil took over and applied his -34% to Ruby for another 4 turns. This gave 571 mana = 100 x 1.07 + 400 x (1.07 - 0.64) + 400 x (1.07 - 0.34) and Ruby wasn’t charged yet.
Great! Thank you! Let’s split up the work.
Can you do the following 3 tests to check on the exact amount of mana that a combo1 tile gives the target?
As we strongly expect this to be 75 mana or equivalent to 0.75 tiles we can setup a fast 5* target.
Test 1: fast 5* getting hit by 3 combo1 tiles to charge with exactly 934 mana
Requirements:
- target = fast 5*, wing position
- 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
- 12% mana generation bonus for the target
- Treevil in the attacking team for -34% mana generation
Get an ally member to set up a friendly battle with this defense team. No additional, unplanned mana effects or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle.
Go for 4 regular turns for the target to charge and let exactly 3 combo1 tiles hit the target during these 4 regular turns. Then fire Treevil for the -34% for 3 turns.
The target should be charged with the resulting 934 mana = 400 x 1.12 + 300 x (1.12 - 0.34) + 3 x 75 x 1.12
=> Is the fast 5* target charged with this amount of mana?
Test 2: fast 5* getting hit by 3 combo1 tile to not charge with exactly 933 mana
Requirements:
- target = fast 5*, wing position
- sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
- 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
- 0% mana generation bonus for the target
- Mist in the attacking team for -64% mana generation
Get an ally member to set up a friendly battle with this defense team. No additional unplanned mana effects or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle.
Go for 6 regular turns for the target to charge and let exactly 3 combo1 tiles hit the target during these 6 regular turns. Fire Mist for the -64% for 3 turns whenever you want during this sequence.
The target should not be charged yet with the resulting 933 mana = 600 x 1.00 + 300 x (1.00 - 0.64) + 3 x 75 x 1.00
=> Is the fast 5* target charged with this amount of mana?
Test 3: fast 5* getting hit by 3 combo1 tile to not charge with exactly 933.75 mana
Requirements:
- target = fast 5*, wing position
- sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
- 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
- 19% mana generation bonus for the target
- Orla or other hero in the attacking team for -24% mana generation
Get an ally member to set up a friendly battle with this defense team. No additional unplanned mana effects or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle.
Go for 4 regular turns for the target to charge and let exactly 3 combo1 tiles hit the target during these 4 regular turns. Then fire Orla for the -24% for 2 turns.
The target should not be charged yet with the resulting 933.75 mana = 400 x 1.19 + 200 x (1.19 - 0.24) + 3 x 75 x 1.19
=> Is the fast 5* target charged with this amount of mana?
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I’m on it and I will ensure all testing is done in your proper conditions. I Have teammates use healers that Boost or affect Mana in any way shape or form. This allows me to run multiple tests within one attack and I like to run healers that are obviously not sorcerers that do not affect enemy Mana along with snipers to take out specific targets and keep my test target alive and as healthy as possible for multiple testing opportunities. Thank you for laying out my part in a very easy to understand way!
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I changed the opening post to acknowledge the efforts and time put in by @Elioty33 and @Zack. Please help me in recognizing their efforts which soon will lead to the extremely accurate discovery of defensive mana generation and so much more along with it that has literally been unknown since March of 2017 upon the game release. Please help me in thanking them for their efforts and contribution that is still being developed and very close to being finalized!
THANK YOU GUYS!
This is the new opening post!
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FOR THOSE WANTING A BASIC CONCEPT OF DEFENSIVE MANA GENERATION TO THE TIME BEING, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO USE THE ATTACHED NUMBERS WHICH ARE ACCURATE ENOUGH TO USE CONFIDENTLY. ONCE WE HAVE ALL THE CORRECT INFORMATION AND DATA HAS BEEN VERIFIED, WE WILL THEN CREATE A RESOURCE FOR PEOPLE TO UTILIZE AND LEARN FROM.
FOR NOW I CHOSE TO LEAVE THE INFORMATION IN THE FORM OF TURNS BUT WILL PROBABLY BE RECONFIGURED TO MP OR MANA POINTS IN WHICH THE AMOUNT OF TURNS WILL BE REPRESENTED AS A WHOLE NUMBER WITHOUT A DECIMAL IN WHICH 8.65 TURNS WOULD WE BE REPRESENTED AS 865 MP FOR EXAMPLE. BECAUSE A TILE THAT MAKES CONTACT IS WORTH .75 TURNS FOR A FIRST MATCH IN WHICH IT DECREASES BY 0.10 TURNS PER TILE FOR EVERY COMBINATION THAT FOLLOWS. [I BELIEVE FROM OBSERVATION ONLY THAT EVERY COMBINATION FOLLOWING COMBO 8 AT 0.5 TURNS, REMAINS CONSTANT AT THAT VALUE.(unconfirmed)] IT IS MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND AND REPRESENT .75 TURNS AS 75 MP AND I THINK WILL BE A MUCH EASIER WAY FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AND APPLY THE INFORMATION ZACK HAS WORKED REALLY HARD TO ACQUIRE.
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You mean a tile that hits a defense hero on combo 1? 
End of turn gives 100mp
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I don’t understand why SG keeps the mana system so obscure. They obviously have formula and can give exact numbers in the forums or better yet, in the game directly.
Imagine hero HP numbers were hidden like mana…