# Defensive Mana - Troops/Differences/Turn- Based Mana Calculations and it's Discovery

@Zack Do I read this correct, that the only ghosted tiles are overspilling from charge 1 to charge 2?

I believe, we can assume, that only ghosted tiles are not behaving as expected? Your rerun with hitting tiles charged the Ninja as predicted by the calculation.

1 Like

If I am not mistaken 3 tiles were ghosted in that test, where Ninja Charge 3 was not charged. With 0 ghosted tiles, it was charged.
How about 2 or 1 ghosted tile?

1 Like

Hey my friend sorry I’ve been busy starting a new alliance and getting all the moving parts going. How’s the testing going? I can work on something now if you have a task for me. Any new figures or values that we were unaware of? How are the numbers holding?

1 Like

I think it cause by total overspill mana from tile regardless if they are ghost tiles or hitting tiles, for example, 2 overspill ghost tiles = 4 overspill hitting tiles.

I think there are something that affect amount of total mana gain when change from 1st charge to 2nd charge or 2nd charge to 3rd charge.

1 Like

Correct!

Yes, there is something strange about that.

Will check in detail during the next days after I have finished the 5* ninjas on defense.
A first test showed that 5 + 6 (1 ghost tile) + 3 tiles result in: not charged
Will need to check again and then show screenshots tomorrow or so.

Alliances can be so much work!

Testing goes very well, all tests regarding the mana speed on defense show exactly the expected results.
We have left so far:

• 5* magic speed (will be done in the next post)
• 5* ninja charge speed (soon)
• 5* tide speed
• mana for combo1 tiles for 4* on defense
• mana for combo2 tiles for 5* on defense

I need your help for the 5* tides speed since I can only go against a Phorcys 1-1, which is a bit awkward with his minions giving 5% mana every turn, so I would have to use Kvasir to prevent his Minions, but he will get the poison DoT and knowing my luck, he’ll die from it because I’ll keep getting cascades.

Test 1:

• target = tide 5*, wing position
• sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
• 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
• 25% mana generation bonus for the target
• Mist in the attacking team for -64% mana generation
• No additional unplanned mana effects, cleansing or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle

During the fast tide speed go for 6 regular turns, fire Mist at the target and go for 3 more turns at -64% to reach 933 MP for the target.
933 = 600 x 1.25 + 300 x (1.25 - 0.64)
=> The target shouldn’t be charged.

Test2:

• target = tide 5*, wing position
• sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
• 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
• 18% mana generation bonus for the target
• Mist in the attacking team for -64% mana generation
• No additional unplanned mana effects, cleansing or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle

During the fast tide speed go for 7 regular turns, fire Mist at the target and go for 2 more turns at -64% to reach 934 MP for the target.
934 = 700 x 1.18 + 200 x (1.18 - 0.64)
=> the target should be charged

Test 3:

• target = tide 5*, wing position
• sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
• 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
• 10% mana generation bonus for the target
• Mist in the attacking team for -64% mana generation
• Ludwig in the attacking team to charge Mist two more times
• No additional unplanned mana effects, cleansing or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle

During the average tide speed go for 9 regular turns, fire Mist at the target and go for 8 more at -64% turns to reach 933 MP for the target. The 8 turns at -64% can be achieved with Ludwig charging Mist
933 = 900 x (1.10 - 0.25) + 800 x (1.10 - 0.25 - 0.64)
=> the target shouldn’t be charged

Test 4:

• target = tide 5*, wing position
• sturdy, not dangerous healer next to target
• 3 squishy, not dangerous heroes to complete the defense team
• 10% mana generation bonus for the target
• Mist in the attacking team for -64% mana generation
• Ludwig in the attacking team to charge Mist one more time
• No additional unplanned mana effects, cleansing or protection against mana debuffs must occur during the battle

During the average tide speed go for 10 regular turns, fire Mist at the target and go for 4 more turns to reach 934 MP for the target.
934 = 1000 x (1.10 - 0.25) + 400 x (1.10 - 0.25 - 0.64)
=> the target should be charged

3 Likes

Let’s finish the magic speed.

First, Cristobal with 11% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 22 (+11%) getting mana from 3 regular turns and 4 turns with -34%.
641 = 300 x 1.11 + 400 x (1.11 - 0.34)

=> magic1 is not charged, as expected

Next is Cristobal with 9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 3 regular turns and 7 turns with -64%.
642 = 300 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)

=> magic1 is charged, as expected

Then we have Cristobal again with 9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 6 regular turns, 4 more regular turns, then 3 turns with -24% and 4 turns with -64%.
1283 = 600 x 1.09 + 400 x (1.09 - 0.22) + 300 x (1.09 - 0.22 - 0.24) + 400 x (1.09 - 0.22 - 0.64)

=> magic2 is not charged, as expected

Finally, we have Nadezhda with +18% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 23 (+13%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 6 regular turns and 6 more regular turns.
1284 = 600 x 1.18 + 600 x (1.18 - 0.22)

=> magic 2 is charged, as expected

2 Likes

I’ll get on that bro

1 Like

So, if we consider Magic heroes on the defence and “only” mana from turns, there is no deviation from the expectation due to unclear overspill?
Great news!

1 Like

I have calculated the following breakpoints for heroes with Styx speed (in offense):

Charge 1, starting with a reduction to 5 tiles at a 20% mana bonus:
20%
50%
100%

Charge 2, starting with a reduction to 7 tiles at a 20% mana bonus:
20%
43%
67%
100%

Charge 3, starting with a reduction to 11 tiles at an 18% mana bonus:
18%
30%
50%
75%
100%
150%

How do your values compare; has anyone perhaps verified some of these breakpoints already?

2 Likes

Important: These figures apply only to tiles that haven’t been ghosted.

2 Likes

Here’s the remaining data on the 5* ninjas on defense.

The 572 MP for charge1 have been screenshot verified in my posts 75 (571 MP = not charged) and 82 (572 MP = charged) above, so I’ll only go for charge2 and charge3 now.

Test 1 with 5* Topaz 3-70 with 7% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 7 (+7%) getting 1143 MP from 10 regular turns and 1 turn with -34%:
1143 = 1000 x 1.07 + 100 x (1.07 - 0.34)

=> charge2 is not charged from 1143 MP, as expected

Test 2 with Topaz with 0% mana generation bonus getting 1144 MP from 10 regular turns and 4 turns with -64%:
1144 = 1000 x 1.0 + 400 x (1.0 - 0.64)

=> charge2 is charged from 1144 MP, as expected

Test 3 with Topaz with 5% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 2 (+5%) getting 1715 MP from 14 regular turns, 1 turn with -24% and 4 turns with -64%:
1715 = 1400 x 1.05 + 100 x (1.05 - 0.24) + 400 x (1.05 - 0.64)

=> charge3 is not charged with 1715 MP, as expected

Test 4 with Topaz with 5% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 2 (+5%) getting 1716 MP from 14 regular turns and 6 turns with -64%:
1716 = 1400 x 1.05 + 600 x (1.05 - 0.64)

=> charge3 is charged with 1716 MP, as expected

As a result, (5*) ninjas on defense are verified as well, so only the tide speed is left now.

2 Likes

Following your list I’ve prepared a similar table now:

total tiles mana generation bous tiles in styx1 tiles in styx2/3 MP in styx1 MP in styx2/3 total MP required MP
mana modifier 0 100
Styx 1 5 20 5 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 1 4 50 4 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 1 3 100 3 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 2 8 20 5 3 600 660 1260 1200
Styx 2 7 43 5 2 715 486 1201 1200
Styx 2 6 67 4 2 668 534 1202 1200
Styx 2 5 100 3 2 600 600 1200 1200
Styx 3 11 19 6 5 714 1095 1809 1800
Styx 3 10 30 5 5 650 1150 1800 1800
Styx 3 9 50 4 5 600 1250 1850 1800
Styx 3 8 75 4 4 700 1100 1800 1800
Styx 3 7 100 3 4 600 1200 1800 1800
Styx 3 6 150 3 3 750 1050 1800 1800

Those are the same numbers except for

• styx2 goes with 8 tiles at 20%
• styx3 goes with 11 tiles at 19% (with 18% I get 1798 MP)

I think so far I have only verified that styx1 is charged with 5 tiles at 20%

Yo just got done finalizing a merge so after war I’ll start testing on the tides heroes @Zack

2 Likes

My Godfather , my best friend and mom died this year so I don’t understand half of your discussion with others.
Can you send me basics of tactics for dragon s, raid tournaments and I have a problem with leveling food amd metal. It stops at 20 half of them.

Thanks Ghost

Don’t worry (be happy)for them. They are properly rewarded for this hard job.

Been some time, work is getting crazier than usual - it’s getting closer to the end of the year.

We wanted to check tile mana for 4* to verify that they also get 75 MP for each combo1 tile, so here are two tests with a fast 4*.
As we now know, fast 4* charge with 899 MP on defense.

Test 1: Mist with +16% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 4 regular turns, 2 combo1 tile and 5 turns with -64% for 898 MP.
898 = 400 x 1.16 + 2 x 75 x 1.16 + 500 x (1.16 - 0.64)

Expectation: 4* get 75 mana for each combo1 tile just like the 5* do, so 898 are not enough to charge Mist

=> Mist is not charged, as expected

Test 2: Mist with +16% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 7 regular turns and 1 combo1 tile for 899 MP.
899 = 700 x 1.16 + 75 x 1.16

Expectation: Mist will get 75 MP from a combo1 tile and charge from the 899 MP

=> Mist is charged, as expected
=> 4* get 75 MP from a combo1 tile, as expected

Bonus test 3: Fast 5* Akkarog with 11% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) getting mana from 2 regular turns, 3 combo1 tiles and 6 turns with -34% for 933.75 MP.
933.75 = 200 x 1.11 + 3 x 75 x 1.11 + 600 x (1.11 - 0.34) = 934?

Expectation: The 0.75 mana from the three tiles is added and then gets rounded up and Akkarog is charged from the 933.75 MP. Otherwise the mana for each tile is treated separately and gets rounded down and he is not charged from the 933.75 MP.

=> Akkarog is not charged
=> The MP for each tile gets treated separately

Bonus test 4: Fast 5* Akkarog with 14% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 7 regular turns, 1 combo1 tile and 1 turn with -64% for 933.5 MP.
933.5 = 700 x 1.14 + 75 x 1.14 + 100 x (1.14 - 0.64) = 934?

Expectation: The .5 MP for the tile gets rounded up and Akkarog gets charged from the 933.5 MP

=> Akkarog is not charged
=> The 0.5 MP gets rounded down for tiles

@CrazyChemist3891 Sorry, I didn’t find the time yet to continue with the overspill mana tests, but I also want to first find a suitable overview table for these tests that allows to check on each mana overspill for a systematic approach

2 Likes

Which is what I expected too And it need to be remembered when working on overspill of mana charges as only one tile does the overspill. The tiles before have the current (before getting hit by tiles of this combo rank) mana modifier (if any), the tile that does the overspill as the same mana modifier and then the other tiles of the same combo gets the mana modifier of the next charge applied (if any, no modifier for ninja for example). At least, that’s how I expect it to work.

3 Likes

I won’t be in a place where I can check on the tides heroes until the 1st. Been really wrapped up lately

Great conclusion!
That result actually came as a side effect for the test

No worries, but I may go for some attempts against a Phorcys in the meantime. My tests with combo2 tiles went phenomenally well, so I feel lucky that tests against Phorcys may also go somewhat smooth.

1 Like

New tests for combo2 tiles because:

So how does the progression for tile combos go?
We verified that combo1 tiles give 75 MP.
Do combo2 tiles give 10 MP less, i.e. 65 MP, or 10% less, i.e. 67.5 MP, which then is either 67 MP or 68 MP?

Test 1: 5* Anne with +2% mana generation bonus from her family bonus with Sargasso getting mana from 7 regular turns, 1 combo2 tile and 4 turns with -64% for 934 MP or 932 MP.
65 x 1.02 = 66.3 MP
67 x 1.02 = 68.34 MP
68 x 1.02 = 69.36 MP

934 MP = 700 x 1.02 + 67 x 1.02 + 400 x (1.02 - 0.64) = charged
933 MP = 700 x 1.02 + 65 x 1.02 + 400 x (1.02 - 0.64) = not charged

Expectation: -10% progression and therefore Anne will charge.

=> Anne is charged
=> combo2 tile gives at least 67 MP
=> combo2 tile gives 10% less, not -10 MP

Test 2: 5* Lianna with +9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 5 regular turns, 1 combo2 tile and 7 turns with -64%.
67 x 1.09 = 73.03 = 73
68 x 1.09 = 74.12 = 74

934 = 500 x 1.09 + 68 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)
933 = 500 x 1.09 + 67 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)

Expectation:

=> Lianna is charged
=> combo2 tile gives 68 MP (the 75 x 0.9 = 67.5 gets rounded up)

I have no idea yet on how to set up a reasonable test for a combo3 tile

edit: Is there a raid video somewhere with a long cascade with combo 10 or more where we can see, if the mana bar is increasing at all from combo 9 onwards?

I might very well remember incorrectly, but I think that from approx. combo 9 onwards the raid target gets basically no more mana from tiles or close to no more mana.

If that would be correct, the following progression may apply:

combo mana points factor
1 75 1
2 68 0,9
3 54 0,8
4 38 0,7
5 23 0,6
6 12 0,5
7 5 0,4
8 2 0,3
9 0 0,2
4 Likes