🧪 Early Information on Dragonspire (Overview) [Part of The Beta Beat v67]

[Alaes]

@Soulwarden life is often

Hozier - Jackie And Wilson (Official Video)

life is unfair
its why so many rot
Is ‘bed rotting’ self-care or laziness? What to know about this Gen Z trend | National Post

[BobTheSnark]

Reading through the information and posts, I’m just going to ask a “please basic summary” question of those who have some experience in Beta:

• Outside of the “crossover” (regular heroes affecting dragons as dragonriders, dragons affect regular heroes as dragon support)…

• …in a nutshell, how is this part of the game substantially different than starting a new E&P account?

It kinda sounds like there’s dragon!food and dragon!iron and dragon!heroes and dragon!buildings and dragon!map and dragon!raids and all the things we already have, so outside of renaming/reskinning, what actually plays out as new here?

I feel like the answer to this question is important in how the dragons play out, because if there is very little new, then it will likely mostly appeal to completionists and/or those wanting to scratch up every possible advantage… may not appeal much or at all to those facing the prospect of “now do everything over again.”

If there is something besides the dragonrider/dragon support crossover that’s substantially new, that’s likely what will determine whether this is an engaging development or one that disengages existing players.

[Alaes]

@Soulwarden

20 characters of get help

meh its more fun being mentally unwell and disturbing people

only one lyric in the song was relevant, though you might not interpret as i do, i’ll leave you to scratch you head guessing what one, as my fun.

the main take away though is the news article, bed rotting. the prevalence of that is why a move such as this new game mode is something zenga sees a a good move. video games are among the activities people do while bed rotting, another whole mode is much more time someone can do in e&p, new world energy ext ext and keeps the playing/spending within the same game.

i’m actually on your side of the argument, where this is more work for old long term players to keep up, more so because most old long term are older people that dont have the ample time to invest in keeping up. i dont like the idea of a “separate” mode that also seems to bleed into the other and penalizes if you dont take part. so unless you do both your ability to maintain your standing in the game in the reg mode { if you value that } is greatly diminished.

though you can complain about this post if you like, i might post back if i see a funny joke to be made .

[Alaes]

@Soulwarden

I apologise, I thought you were a mentally handicapped sped but you speak truth.

no need to apologize, i could have made a more clearly stated post, its often something i do, or dont do to see who pays attention to things or doesnt, and lees that they are paying attention to me per say then to what i said. this world often speaks in subtlety, i keep trying but i can never seem to get it right lol i’m way to bluntly spoken lol, you seem to be as well.

even a crazy person can be right about something, or say something true, oppositely sane people can say nothing but lies, usually they do so because it works to their advantage in some way and benefits them. and of course the old expression a broken clock is right twice a day is also true lol

@Soulwarden

The fact they’re adding it is not what bothers me, it’s that they’ve made it intertwine with the base game meaning you can’t just “skip” it and it completely devalues your teams on the main game, now you need these stupid dragons as they act as “supports” (apparently a “support” = more heal than a main hero… pft).

That’s bad enough, but they leaped past the line as soon as they allowed these “supports” into PvP.

i agree with your points here

@Soulwarden

They’re so greedy it does make me want to say a lot of crap about them, because they do deserve it, the words - not the actions, at least not the devs as they’re just doing their job.

this is something that i also believe to be true, most notably this statement which seems to be a very strong consensus among most players at least here on the forum, though the sentiment might be different on the reddit e&p community but i doubt it

@Soulwarden

They’re so greedy

we all know that business needs to be profitable, but the term greedy in association with e&p has become a wholehearted consensus among all players on the forum in the last few years, really since the second buyout of the company. and seemed to even speed up more during covid when people had ample time, we still havent fully recovered in the … i cant think of the proper term…not work ethic or efficiently of people returning to work…but a related term, much of the workforce has not returned to full strength across the world, in my country available hours for fulltime workers arent back in place as they were before covid, again there’s a term but it escapes me right now.

it seems the owners are gambling they can keep milking profits exponentially from the plasyerbase and even with those that leave enough new players willing to spend to play { not even nessicarily whales } to replace those that leave will keep the profits coming. its a gamble if that can be sustained, but theres also another factor that has not been mentioned and thats returning players, its been common place for players to leave and then return at some point, plenty of threads here with titles “hey i’m back” or “i’ve returned to the game” but any returning players will find returning after this new mode is instituted will have a insurmountable problem of returning other then having old heroes, they will not have any ability to play again without substantial investment in time given to playing as well as a gigantic hurdle to overcome with a old account, likely none of those players will ever even attempt to return even if they liked the game with it having changed so substantially, i dont think the game owners have taken that fact into account at all, returning players have always been a factor in the finances of this game profits and this eliminates that for all returning players that arent whales, returning players have never been mostly whales, wealthy players are fickle and migrate to new games where they can dominate, this new mode insures no returning players will find it feasible to do so, zenga have shot themselves in the foot and negated the possibility of that revenue down the road.

[Alaes]

think i should tag @BobTheSnark to read that post of mine above though only focusing mostly on the last part and not my opening jokes lol. they have a very good understanding of the game and a opinion of what factors are relevant to the players and as well as the interests of the owners. hopefully if they dissect my overview of the financial gamble they can agree or discount it as not a relevant point that i see. i typically find myself in alinement with their perspective game wise, though bob has a much more analytical mind then mine and better articulated lol

[BlackZed]

@Soulwarden

The fact they’re adding it is not what bothers me, it’s that they’ve made it intertwine with the base game meaning you can’t just “skip” it and it completely devalues your teams on the main game, now you need these stupid dragons as they act as “supports” (apparently a “support” = more heal than a main hero… pft).

Let Team Zynga do what they are told to do. It’s not even their directive. Directive is from the very top who see the need for big money constantly, and the need is real.

It’s not players’ fault. It’s not coders’ fault.

It’s the way TT/Zynga top mgt prefer to operate.

Players will decide what they want to do, as always.

Protesting now when coding has already been done won’t be as effective as players exiting when feature is launched. That has always been the most effective way to curb Dev’s unrealistic expectations of player base.

You spent a lot. So did many others. Me included. So you are not alone.

[Soiden]

As I mentioned somewhere, it’s like implementing legendary troops but you have to do A LOT (same as original game) of things just to get/level them.

Map stages and board have their own effects, but nothing that couldn’t have been in a new event.

[StroopwafelJack]

Are all these new Dragon things part of E&P or the new Dragon game?

[Alaes]

seems it is a new mode in the game, a game within the game as it were, and not playing the new mode severely limits you standing in the original mode so you cant just skip/avoid if playing competivaily is something you like

[planta]

It’s a new type of levelling up mechanic that works teamwise. The catch is that to level this mechanic, instead of just adding the new stuff onto quests, POV, etc. they made a whole copy/paste game to get the new mats needed for it.

[BobTheSnark]

@Soiden

it’s like implementing legendary troops but you have to do A LOT (same as original game) of things just to get/level them.

@planta

to level this mechanic, instead of just adding the new stuff onto quests, POV, etc. they made a whole copy/paste game to get the new mats needed for it.

Good to know: and… given that I have yet to engage even with Legendary troops, the idea of playing an entire E&P clone just to get… more-troop-like-mechanic sounds uninspiring so far.

Obviously, I want E&P to keep going and have new content, but this sounds less “new” and mostly “start all over from scratch on one side, with mostly-the-same gameplay, and then play something approaching twice as much”?

I mean if I really want to play twice as much I could fire up (as some folks do) a F2P alt account?

@BlackZed

Protesting now when coding has already been done won’t be as effective as players exiting when feature is launched. That has always been the most effective way to curb Dev’s unrealistic expectations of player base.

I… I mean I suppose as players we’d like a more fine-grained way of having our concerns heard other than

• we shrug, continue to play and/or spend, and the new feature is deemed a “success” regardless of actual player sentiment

• we give up and quit the game that we’ve gotten into playing, often for years, entirely

Presumably there must be some workable middle ground? Or at least should be? I’d certainly love to discover one.

Plus: presumably it is preferable to “lose” (or repurpose) a bunch of coding than to stick to it regardless and thereby wind up seeing (further) exiting playerbase.

Plus plus: to the extent that this dragon base etc is largely a copy-paste reskin of the existing game… how much truly new coding is involved here?

I suppose I’m also curious as to when in the past that players exiting upon a new feature actually curbed that new feature.

The closest I can think of is increasing playerbase unrest with individual hero nerfs, which appears to have led to, basically, rebranding of nerfs as “we’ll just nerf everything with accelerating power rush instead of individual heroes” (see, e.g. Big Imbalance Update and hero release/most of “balance” updates since) – and I’m honestly unaware of how much of, or if, that response was driven by players actually exiting.

[BlackZed]

@BobTheSnark

I… I mean I suppose as players we’d like a more fine-grained way of having our concerns heard other than

Project started. There was sneak peek and then silence for a long time. Then another sneak peek. Do we knew Team Zynga was still working on it.

Player response then was basically: why don’t they work on something else with higher priority to us ? Be it bug fixing, new buildings cos we have surplus iron, white patches in stronghold etc etc.

So… did Team Zynga listen? They didn’t shelve DoD project. They still continued and probably assigned 1-2 coders to work on bugs and what not, which explains why bugs took so long to fix generally.

Now that DOD is almost there, released to Beta. Do you think Zynga mgt will listen to current player response, and then shelf the entire DOD project just cos we players are not enamoured of a mini-me addition when we wanted something else?

What then happens to the currently capitalised RnD expenses incurred in developing DOD? Total write off to PL cos us players don’t want it ? Or plough ahead, and then try to get revenue to match the (deferred) expense that will be released to PL once DOD is launched?

Zynga mgt obviously voted to try to get revenue in by tying dem dragons to classic EP. If I am sitting in mgt, I would vote the same way too.

Unless a few whales band together and tell Zynga Mgt:
“Look mates! We don’t like this new feature. How much did it cost you? We will reimburse the cost incurred.”

Any whales volunteering to do this for the rest of the player base? If you are okay to do this, please contact your assigned VIP CSO and let Zynga mgt know.

Perhaps, just perhaps there will be a reprieve. For awhile.

In the meantime, planets continue to revolve. The project continues.

The only recourse to players now:
• Beta tries to mute down any OP dragons and reduce the Resources and Waiting times for buildings (at least make it easier for player base to adapt to mini-me addition)
OR
• do whatever we feel like doing when mini-me is released
OR
• exit EP as a form of protest

Does that answer your question ?

[Alaes]

smh smh smh

time for me to be weird and random…though maybe not random…i’ll post something i wrote recently, its a very old idea of mine actually, old and dumb… but perhaps true …even if stupid…it does apply to the idea of problems of numbers vs a small amount with “power” … take it with a grain of salt…or just ignore…the latter may be more fitting actually…but i’ll post anyway smh

lol they are to blurry to read lol…that must be the way its supposed to be …

captain halfass away

dont ask…or do

[BobTheSnark]

@BlackZed

Unless a few whales band together and tell Zynga Mgt:
“Look mates! We don’t like this new feature. How much did it cost you? We will reimburse the cost incurred.”

That could be read a little bit like rewarding behavior players don’t like…by paying for it. Not, perhaps, the best incentive to avoid future behavior players don’t like?

Perhaps alternatively, a few whales band together and tell Zynga:

“Look mates! We don’t like this new feature. We plan not to spend any money on it, and since your monetization seems to aim, hm, mostly toward us, maybe you should give us something we will spend money on instead.”

Or even instead of a few whales we get a whole bunch of dolphins together saying the same thing, although the latter is a lot harder to do if we don’t even try.

My point is that if players increasingly believe the only difference they can ever make is to quit… then more players will quit. We’ve been seeing it, and the trend will not be lessened by a “customer is always wrong” version of “customer service.”

[BlackZed]

yeah that may work if those bunch of whales promise to spend enough to cover the cost of RnD foregone.

Many pods of dolphins can probably force the same result provided they spend enough to cover the costs incurred (at least). You can try to put together those pods of dolphins if you have the network.

Zynga’s relationship with a player is 1-1: per account. It is up to that account to decide.

If you can muster enough like-minded accounts to achieve the result you prefer, go for it.

Based on the failed TV nerf protest movement back in 2020, with signatures collected for a group petition, I doubt the success of any movement without assurance of at least $$$,$$$ flowing to Zynga.

But if you want to go ahead to try, I am happy to add my signature to your forthcoming petition.

[Alaes]

yeahhhh anarchy
down with the decadent swine… release the dogs of war and let loose a terrible furry!!! ahhhhhhhhh

{ runs off into wall, and falls down}…well that was fun

[BobTheSnark]

@BlackZed

Many pods of dolphins can probably force the same result provided they spend enough to cover the costs incurred (at least). You can try to put together those pods of dolphins if you have the network.

I… think we may be missing each other’s points here.

The point I was trying to make was:

• why should players offer to pay SG/Zynga/TakeTwo in response to something we don’t want?

It’s bad enough when there are game changes that players don’t like… but pay for anyway.

But if we offer to pay to play the changes we don’t like AND offer to pay to get rid of changes we don’t like?

It only creates more incentives, from the biz side, to implement more changes we don’t like.

If we don’t like something, we should rally together to say “we aren’t going to pay for this.”

Assuming that customer satisfaction is worth literally nothing to SG (and its chain of owners), the only way that we can make the biz stop doing things we don’t like if we make them not like what follows, i.e. a drop in quarterly revenue.

[PlayForFun]

The final Beta beat for this dragonspire topic:

• 🧪 Early Information on Dragons Quests [Part of The Beta Beat v67]

[BlackZed]

@BobTheSnark

If we don’t like something, we should rally together to say “we aren’t going to pay for this.”

Assuming that customer satisfaction is worth literally nothing to SG (and its chain of owners), the only way that we can make the biz stop doing things we don’t like if we make them not like what follows, i.e. a drop in quarterly revenue.

So player response can only be :

• continue playing, #nospend
• continue playing, #spendless
• stop playing

Those 3 are the options that are always open to players of a free-to-play game. It was there in the beginning, it’s still there.

Petitions don’t work. That has been tried.

Feedback doesn’t work. They only do what they want to do.

Getting “nasty” (from their perspective) resulted in a back handed nerf of heroes released earlier than 2021. Instead of the intended BBU.

If you want someone to cater to what you want, you pay for the bespoke service. It’s as simple as that.

There are no freebies in life. Pixel or otherwise.

Someone has to pay the piper. Currently it’s the spenders keeping servers running.

Zynga wants this group of players to keep spending. They need money, loads of it. Hence the new launches. The bombardment of offers.

You can start a proper movement to galvanise like minded players. Get it started, push its growth. You will see results. Posting the same message in forum is not starting a movement. Do something concrete.

Players will still decide for themselves ultimately. Current player base is more aware of Zynga’s intentions than they were, say, couple of years back before Zynga assumed full ownership of this game.

I trust that each player will and can decide their involvement in this game, with each new feature, each new offer. There’s only so much a player will accept eventually.

There won’t be a quick death or a quick response from Zynga unless something cataclysmic happens. And this may happen in the 2nd/3rd quarter 2024 if cash flow doesn’t improve rapidly.

[BobTheSnark]

@BlackZed

Do something concrete.

I post suggestions and idea threads, trying to rally opinion about what at least some of us players don’t want and do want.

I make arguments about why I think some game changes might be problematic, trying to rally opinion so that some folks might decide “maybe I won’t spend on this when I could either save money or spend on that, which I enjoy more, instead.”

I can’t tell people what to do and in general I try pretty hard to avoid coming off as telling people what to do… but I do try to make my case, influence thinking about current and coming trends in the game.

If “do something concrete” doesn’t include some of what I’ve been doing, I’d love to hear specific, concrete suggestions as to what it does include, beyond some form of “find a way to send Zynga more money.”

Because a number of us don’t necessarily have an open ended budget for “send Zynga more money” and even those of us who do have some room there feel very little or no incentive to do so when we feel like we are getting less for our money (and time) than we may have in the past.

At some point, speaking in money isn’t only about spending more. It’s also about associating a cost with certain game decisions, so that SG/Zynga/etc. doesn’t only look at “doing X will bring us this specific revenue” without also assessing what specific costs may also be associated beyond continuing to pay employees who aren’t yet under the “cost efficiency, we can just pay fewer employees/fewer hours and get the same work” axe.

The problem I see with “send Zynga more money” is that it so often seems to serve only as a “keep doing more of what you have been” incentive.

I’d like to find a concrete incentive for “DON’T keep doing more of what you have been.”