Seriously dude, enough people have disagreed with you, that maybe, just maybe, you should step back and think that maybe your logic isn’t perfect and other people could have very valid (and not at all illogical) reasons for coming to a different conclusion than you
4 Likes
Can we define your idea of huge or small power creep, if you have any examples? 
What does small power creep involve for S3 and what is large power creep
What kind of creep is required to justify TC Season 2?
You can buff existing heroes as examples
Thanks
Not really, because I’m not good enough at the game to be able to just come up with heroes just like that.
But I expect the difference to be as big as the average HoTM/s2 hero compared to the average s1 hero.
edit: @FrenziedEye But just to make a random statement, maybe have s3 heroes as strong as pre-nerf JF, maybe slightly stronger, as the average s3 hero, not a super strong one.
Or, people are appealing to emotion. Like @yelnats_24 keep bringing in his numbers, which includes unrenewable resources of VIP and atlantis coins, and challenge event runs where only a maximum of 500 players (but way less can do this again and again, for all challenges) can do, and use that as a basis for argument;
Can you really say with good conscience that that’s very valid and not at all illogical?
People have very valid and logical reasons for wanting more from HA for the f2p player. Yes. That’s a feeling or an opinion, there’s no right or wrong in that either way.
But, specific, falsifiable claims like “my idea isn’t f2p-friendly” or that “completely worthless 1/1 heroes that are taking up roster space is more valuable than a chance at having a great hero” make no sense and won’t ever make sense,
and comparisons based on a single player’s unreplicable experience also has no weight in an argument.
Your argument is valid insofar as saying “I know it’s not mathematically optimal, I know I’m falling for the sunk cost fallacy, but I still want my worthless 5 stars to stay a worthless 5 star and not become a worthless 3 star”.
1 Like
Their was no reference to the games name, but since we wanna roll this way…AFK Arena, made my Lilith studios who know a little bit of running a top end game. Learn from them SG cause your running this game into the dirt…look forward to management messing up the Hero Academy on a epic scale.
No, you are the one shooting down your own idea here:
Do you consider spending a full year just to build the final level of HA as no active engagement? Only committed player can reach that.
No, people who pay hundreds of dollar will get multiple desirable non-S1 5* in short ammount of time but those who depend of HA have to wait few months to get non-S1 5* and there is no guarantee it is a desriable one.
Your rebuttal is full oh hyperbolic. When I say 5% chance to get non-S1 5* each 3 days, you read it as 5% chance for GM each day, that is like:
Just because your idea is rejected (as it is proven to be limited for F2P while not limited for P2W), you should not blantantly misquoting/TAMPERING someone’s idea like that.
This is an example of illogical rebuttal. Duration is the best limit that can negate its usefulness toward P2W as it control the hope frequency. If the duration is 3 seconds, I can get a gravemaker in a day. But if the duration is 3 days, as I have claculated that gravemaker probability is 1 in 1333, that means on average you can get a gravemaker every 11 years. (Do I calculate math with emotion?)
I was merely giving an example of what you can get by hardwork, just like you did:
If you only get 2 per months from stage and mission, you are doing something wrong as I can get 2.5 pulls per month from chests and seadragon alone.
That proves that my systen is not only hardworking but also smart (logic not emotion).
Who said it was guaranteed anyway?
I only give you an example of how many a hard/smartworking F2P can get, not merely 3.3 pulls. EDIT: 3.08 not 3.3.
Which is only 12 pulls out of 190.
Last year my method is not as good as my current method, and that already give me 15 pulls per month, not counting the free VIP.
This year there will not be atlantis coins from stage/mission, however with my improved method, I can still get 15 pulls/month.
It is true that it is not replicable by most F2P as it require commitment. But even HA require year long commitment just to build it, will all F2P have it? Certainly not.
By that logic, if I can’t use it as the basis of my argument, you also can’t use no engagement as the basis of your argument.
You are discounting the FACT that iron generated from mine can’t supply the need of iron required to build HA, you have to get those iron fron raid, chests, etc which is an ACTIVE engagement.
It is not a claim, the developer want to give dupes legitimate use.
I’m hoping there will be a legitimate use for duplicates.
2 members in my alliance.
Just as I have said, why not give 10 free meals to the poor and 10 free meals to the reach instead of 5 free meals to the poor and 15 free meals to the rich???
Why would they not run it?
Do you really not see how ridiculous your rebuttal is?
Please argue based on logic not emotion.
2 Likes
My argument is that I want the same chance at a “great” hero as you describe, but I think it’s better that when we inevitably don’t get an upgrade (likely 99% of the time knowing this game and RNG), that it’s better to get back a 5* (even a worthless one) than to downgrade to a 3* or a 4*
2 Likes
We can agree to disagree on this point, and I can understand your point of view here on this particular issue. I’m still more concerned with the fact that under such a scheme, older players have virtually no advantage as the rest of their duplicates still lay waste. But I would like to ask you, what if by sacrificing that guaranteed (probably dup) 5 star, you increased the chances of getting a special hero?
Say for the sake of argument that in scheme 1, we have 2.5% chance at HoTM or s2 hero and 97.5% chance at s1 5 star. In scheme 2, we have 5% chance at HoTM or s2 hero, 30% chance at event or s2 4 star, and 65% chance at event or s2 3 star.
Personally I prefer scheme 2, what about you?
But anyway,
My point is lots of people have disagreed with me, but for different reasons, some are valid, some people made very good points which I have agreed with and pointed out. Other people completely misrepresent my points though, and those are the ones I’ve been rebutting.
What you consider as a huge flaw is the key to make sure P2W will not use it more than F2P.
Moreover, when people reach the final level of HA, they would already have many dupes not just one. It take more than 1.5 years to build it. Again, you should have know this by using logic.
I reject this, this is unsustainable, by creating such an unsustaibable feature, only the rich (P2W) can afford to use it, not F2P.
1 Like
If I don’t pull anyone new in a certain color, I will eventually level that dupe. Yes, even the third or fourth one. Yes, even one like Quintus. Cuz you know what? It’s still a 5*, and I like leveling heroes, playing with all different combos and setups, and so if it’s either keep a dupe 5* to eventually level, even one as useless as another Quintus, or spend resources just to trade it in for an EHT where I’ll most certainly get another dupe (a 3* one, at that), I would always choose the former - unless, as I said, I’m getting 30+ tokens a piece - about how many I’d need to pull another 5* - or if I’m guaranteed another 5* from that EHT
& If that’s how SG wants to handle the HA - I will most assuredly protest against it in beta, because I don’t doubt most of the playerbase would be disappointed with their take on it, as well. Considering we’re all looking for new heroes from the HA, not more of the same, that would be a bad way to go (imo)
So you’re totally entitled to your idea, and thinking it’s what will float, but as for me - not a fan of it happening. Now, I appreciate how much time you’re taking to respond to each and every one of us who oppose you, but why don’t you consider taking a break from it all, as I don’t see you changing any of our minds [anytime soon] with this continued banter. It’s getting to be a little much, don’t you think? Just agree to disagree, and move on 
If not? Good luck 
& BTW - If you’re so sure of it, why don’t you consider putting it into under ideas & feature requests part of the forum, and have the community vote on it? That way, you’ll be able to tell [for yourself] how truly well-received (or not) it is, rather than spending so much time defending an idea with no idea how to truly tell if it’ll actually improve game-play for most players (or not).
Just a thought
Have fun 
11 Likes
Agree
Don’t worry, by the time a player reach the final level of HA, they might have been playing for 2 years which turn them into older players.
That’s how it would work. Only gives a unique hero season 2 or hotm, or emblems. That may even drive revenue with p2w now getting something of value (emblems for extra 5*… could probably give them 5-10 emblems each and they would be happy)
1 Like
Uhhhh dude. Let’s go back and look at the entire conversation here.
So me, a player who is not a p2w player would find HA useful under that example. A p2w player wouldn’t, as you’ve agreed with your comment “because you are not p2w” which implies that p2w players would be different.
So.
The feature does not increase the disparity between free players and p2w players AND is thus f2p-friendly…??? Yeah?
committed != active. If I invest $10,000 in a stock, I’m committed to that company. But I have no active engagement in that company. And it makes a lot of sense to me that company employees earn more money than me, because they’re actively helping the company rather than passively committing.
I don’t understand the point of your argument here, and I don’t think you understood the point of my argument you’re quoting. So I’m not sure what to say here, other than yes, people are spending hundreds of dollars, and that if those heroes are obtainable for free, a lot of people will no longer spend those hundreds of dollars.
Not really, because that’s not central to my point. I kept stressing the fact that specific heroes does not matter. The point isn’t Gravemaker or Hel. The point is the ability to get any tier 1 hero.
I think you should follow this rule.
Yes you do, because your argument is just entirely off. If the duration is 3 seconds, but the % chance for proc is 0.0000000000000000000001%, that’s way worse than if the duration is 1 month but the chance for proc is 100%.
And if the duration is 10 seconds and chance for proc is 100%, but it costs 100000 gems per usage, it’s still not f2p friendly.
See? Other variables matter a lot.
I’ll take you at your word for this and won’t question it. But that 3.3/month figure is still hyper-inflated because you included unrenewable VIP days, which I didn’t even bother pointing out. So your numbers are still vastly inflated. 190 free pulls in a year? I bet we can count on a single hand how many f2p players managed to get that in the past year.
Yes, your “system” in playing the game is hard working and smart. But not your arguments here.
By showing averages, you are implying that it is obtainable. Which it isn’t. For the vast majority of players. So that’s not a useable average.
Again, totally not representative, I’ve made less than a third of your pulls and I’ve paid money.
I am very much skeptical of this claim for a f2p player on a single account, without counting challenge event ranking rewards (the normal rewards for completion and rerunning rare3 should be counted because everyone can do that)
This is not logical at all. I’m saying your numbers are not replicable because of a hardcap on the number of players who can get ranking rewards (500 for epic). There are only ever a maximum of 500 players who can possibly even think about numbers that high no matter how much engagement and commitment is made.
your argument is akin to someone getting a 5 star and HoTM from a single pull and using that as an expectation, a basis for argument. It doesn’t work that way.
I don’t see how this is possible to implement, and if it was, p2w players can buy resources from the gem shop. So it still benefits p2w players, so by your logic, that’s a bad system.
And my suggestion gives dups a perfectly legitimate use.
This is just a bad argument on so many levels it makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone is getting the same HA. Everyone is getting 10 free meals.
What you’re asking for isn’t for everyone to get 10 free meals. What you’re asking for is for everyone to get 10 free meals AND make it impossible for p2w to get more meals if they want to pay. That’s an unreasonable request.
Because they have better things to do with their time? Or maybe they would. But do you think Bill Gates is going to care about 30 free EHT?
Nope, they’re perfectly logical.
1 Like
What is unsustainable, is your idea to completely wipe away any incentive for p2w players to spend money.
Right here:
is the key to make sure P2W will not use it more than F2P.
Again, with your meals example, you are saying both f2p and p2w players CAN ONLY GET 10 MEALS NO MATTER WHAT. You can’t pay for more meals even if you wanted to (i.e use it more).
So p2w can’t even spend money even if they want to spend money!!! How does this make any sense whatosever in your mind? 
You literally are trying to make it impossible for p2w players to spend money, that’s gonna completely destroy the game because SG will no longer have any income.
As I’ve said before, I am impressed by your optimism and hope that HA becomes such a great feature you guys expect. All we can do is wait and see in a year or so. I hope for your sake and mine that you are right.
But if I were to bet, I’m almost certain that the real HA would make my proposal seem like heaven in comparison.
1 Like
You are both right and wrong here:
both of them would freely get the same chances to pull, like the TC actually do
Paying players could get their pulls from other sources as free ways are slow
This is the same under any conceivable proposal for the HA. There’s not a single proposal (that I’ve seen) that says f2p players get a 5% chance for a good hero while a p2w player gets a 10% chance.
1 Like
That’s really not the same, unless the HA you are sponsoring would only convert heroes you get from free sources.
I have done that, it took me 30 minutes ti write an answer becauae of that.
You are misquoting/tampering again, when I said that, I was telling you about how targetting HoTM from my system is irrelevant for P2W that it won’t affect SG revenue.
You have taken it out of context. You are claiming your idea is F2P friendly just because you are not P2W. By that LOGIC, I can claim your idea is not F2P friendly because I am an F2P and I say it is not F2P friendly, furthermore as your are actually C2P, my argument have more weight.
You have been blantanly tampering my idea and rebuttal as I have mentioned the examples, while you are claiming I did that without proof.
Now here we go again another tampering. When you compare 3 seconds and 3 days, you should compare it with the same probability.
When are testing a variable, we have to make sure the other variables do not effect the testing or at least minimize the effect, this is a statistic/experiment standard rule.
Here we go again, another tampering! 3.3 per months is without VIP, with thosr VIP it become 6.3. EDIT: 3.08 not 3.3.
I would be proud if the result is zero.
That is a personal insult, I never call your argument/idea as “stupid”.
It is obtainable by hardworking players.
Of course, only the top percentile (that is why it is hardwork).
I never said it is player average. It is my personal average and an achiavable average for hardworking F2P.
I suggest you read my other posts about how I did that, it will help you to get more pulls.
You maybe skeptical because you have done that but as someone who have done it multiple times, I have faith on it. (This is month is the first tine I get 2 EHT from ranked Epic).
It is 5000 in epic…
That is a hyperbolic comparison.
I have told you that even my systen is undesirable for P2W, why would ther rush it?
Spending few days time using a 2 year in the making building to convert most of your 5* into 3* is not legitimate use.
Yes that is how my proposed system work. Thank you.
With your proposed system, I can get 9 EHT in first month and lesser the following months while P2W will have hundred days of EHT each day.
2 Likes
Did you read that right???
If P2W will not use it more than F2P, that means P2W will still summon as HA is not too desirable for them.
That mean they keep summoning. How did that wipe away any incentive for p2w players to spend money?
Seriously???
3 Likes
Ugh, it’s so hard to talk with you because you keep changing your arguments and then claim that I am “tampering”.
for example,
This makes absolutely ZERO sense in the context of the quoting tree above, and everyone can see that. First post was me giving an example (HA giving 1% chance for HoTM), 2nd post was you saying that p2w players won’t use that.
“Your system” is of absolute no relevance in that entire argument because it never came up in the first place.
And again and again, you keep making assumptions upon assumptions, and you keep changing your arguments as time goes on.
Dude, seriously. I’m just gonna bring up one example because I’m not gonna waste time when you keep changing your arguments.
But:
Dude. Go back and look at the argument you were trying to refute. I’m saying it makes no sense to look at single dimension variables in vacuum. That’s my original argument. It logically follows my argument includes other variables, which can be just as impactful in the equation. Because that’s exactly what I’m arguing for in the first place!
Assuming constant variables is an assumption you yourself are making that isn’t part of the argument.
Similarly, you’re making so many assumptions that do not hold within all of your arguments. And more importantly, you’re making arguments against your own assumptions, and not actually arguing against what I am saying. And then you say I am “tampering” when I try to bring the topic back to what I was originally trying to say. There’s just no way we can communicate like this.
If all 1,000,000 players suddenly starting being hardworking and playing smart, they still cannot fit within the top scoring 1000 or 5000 or whatever challenge event players. Only 1000 or 5000 players can.
So no, it doesn’t just depend on hardwork, there is absolutely a hardcap which makes it unreasonable.
And I’m too lazy to dig out your post where you calculated that 3.3 per month odds, but I am certain you included VIP gems in there. But you are free to calculate out again how you arrived at 3.3 gem pulls per month right here right now.
i will concede that I am wrong just as I’m going to concede the one correct point you made in all of your arguments, which is that top 5000 from epic gets EHTs, not just top 500. I was wrong there.