🧪 Early Information on Hero Academy [Part of The Beta Beat v30]

[Ricksta]

Add me as another disgruntled, long-time player. I’ll share my story because I suspect I’m not alone. I’ve been playing since Sept '17. I’ve spent a sickly amount of time and money on the game. That’s my decision (read: addiction) and no fault of SG’s. For a while now, SG has been thinking of ways to incent players like me to keep summoning. That started with Wars which requires 6 solid teams. Now they have Tavern, which also requires a deep bench. But once you have 30 maxed 5*s, why keep pulling?

Some time back, the answer came in the form of the rumored Hero Academy, which promised players a chance to exchange like for like heroes. What SG has delivered, at least in Beta, technically meets that promise. Technically, you can’t get the exact same hero back…you can get a worse hero. Technically, you can exchange but it’ll take you months to have the capability (not a surprise) and boatloads of resources and time for a chance at something worse.

Back in March, I chased Ursena but would’ve been fine getting Inari. It didn’t hurt that Telluria was the HOTM. I didn’t get any of the S2 heroes but ended up with 3 Tells. Now you’re telling me that I get to spend months of building, train my two unleveled Tells and end up with two S1 heroes. And I would find that out after 14 days of training.

In my mind, I think SG has overplayed its hand. Even your cash cows have a limit to how much we’re willing to be milked. You should’ve been happy with how much you’ve made from my addiction and not tried to string me along further.

[Carl]

@Ricksta

In my mind, I think SG has overplayed its hand.

Understatement. They are astonishingly arrogant if you judge by actions and not words.

[amrath]

@yelnats_24

Lets suppose TC2 give:
55% 1* (150 XP)
45% 2* (390 XP)
Thus 1 training equal to 55%×150 + 45%×390 = 258 XP

While HA7 give:
50% 1* trainer (1000 XP)
40% 2* trainer (1500 XP)
9% 3* trainer (2500 XP)
1% 4* trainer (5000 XP)
Thus 1 training equal to 50%×1000 + 40%×1500 + 9%×2500 + 1%×5000 = 1375 XP

@yelnats_24

1375/258 = 5.33
XP from HA7 is 5.33 larger than TC2 per training.

Time wise, TC is 30 minutes while HA7 is 9 hours (18 times slower), which means the XP/hour is:
TC2: 258×2 = 516
HA7: 1375÷9 = 152.78

…

This data should be shared with SG, IF THERES ANY WAY TO GET IT TO THEM.

[Sid1207]

@Quinn3

Ok, but my point being is that it’s an optional building that doesn’t quite change the fundamentals of the game. Sure it gives a limited opportunity to get a non-S1 legendary and some troops and trainers, but even if they aren’t of any use to the player, does its existence really decrease the enjoyment of the game?

I know it’s not addressed to me but wanted to share my viewpoint.

It doesn’t decrease enjoyment but it was touted as something that’ll boost enjoyment. After having played this game for 1.5+ years everything is verging on territory of becoming boring chore.

Titans - Take one of the 5 teams and play. I don’t even have to think anymore because it’s a drill I have run hundreds of times because my team composition rarely changes. Only fun part is seeing scores which rarely diverge since base teams & items rarely diverge
War - Literally use same hero teams almost every war. Only interesting part is how I pick opponents and handle boards
Raids - This one can be interesting because it forces you to evaluate opponent defense and form team accordingly. However most defenses on diamond are so unoriginal, I don’t even have to think lot of times and again I just pick one of my 5 raid teams. And honestly I don’t blame player’s originality because people are so afraid of making mistakes with mats and emblems, they rather just tread tried-and-tested path
Tavern of Legends - Yeah this was interesting for first time but I think it’ll be same drill again this time
Tourneys - This probably has most variety in terms of play. I try levelling various 3* and 4* and experimenting them in various scenarios. I wish return was better to a degree it allowed me to more freely experiment. I don’t have a lot of emblems and nor can I afford to move them on weekly basis.
Challenge Events - Beat similar thing every month with one of the five teams (in each rarity). Competing to top is too tedious and going for middle tiers (below first 3 tiers) isn’t as rewarding enough compared to effort needed
Rare Quests & Map levels - meh…I look forward to S3 bosses similar to Dark Lord, Ursena, Yimir or An-Windr even. Otherwise most of the levels feel same. If they appear difficult then they are only artificially difficult in the sense mobs and bosses have pretty high stats

For me and lot of my fellow players the enjoyment has already been drained out. I don’t even summon as much (C2P soon going F2P) as them, and yet I have so many 5* duplicates. 4* dupes get eaten in first 10 mins. After you see 5th Elkanen from TC20, or 3rd Justice from portal while first two are 1.1, or trying to summon Falcon and you see your 67th Boril…you get jaded.

Hero academy was one thing lot of us clung to thinking we will finally get something exciting and novel to focus on. I don’t want to catch all heroes nor do I want to become #1 or anything like that. I just want to try some new team composition or some new ability without having to pour in hundreds to thousands of $s. I know someone will bring up the age old argument “You don’t need HotM or premium heroes to enjoy the game”. Maybe you don’t but I’m bored AF with same 20 5* classics. Even if I level all of this dupes idk what food that’ll do.

TL;DR - Things are very monotonous for a set of late game players. Could a different form of academy broken that monotony?

[yelnats_24]

Yes if the number of HotM do not increase, but every month, a HotM enter that pool, in 4 years time, that is another 48 HotM, which means the odds of specific hero is halved.

We could calculate how long until the expected frequency reach 1 by accumulating the odds of each training done.

Currently there are 49 heroes but by the time we can use it (around September at the earliest without gem skip), it will already become 52.

At September the expected frequency of a specific heroes per training is 0.05/52 = 0.000962

At October it will be 0.05/53 = 0.000943

Each month we have (365/12)/7 = 4.345 training chance.

Accumulated expected frequency from September = 4.345 × 0.000962 = 0.00418

From October = 4.345 × 0.000943 = 0.0041

Total expected frequency from those 2 months = 0.00418 + 0.0041 = 0.00828

How long until the accumulated expected frequency reach 1?

n months where n is:

1 = 4.345 × (0.05/(51+1) + 0.05/(51+2) + … + 0.05/(51+n)

1/(51+1) + 1/(51+2) + … + 1/(51+n) = 4.60274

(How to write mathematical symbol here…)

I will just use excel to calculate the result…

And the result is n = 5087 months… or around 424 years.

In another words, on average, you need 424 years to get Gravemaker from HA. You can be extremely lucky by pulling it on your first retraining, but majority of retrainers won’t get him from HA even until the end of times even if they keep on retraining.

[TomSnow]

@Carl

it will take an average of 19 years to obtain a specific HotM or event hero, is my math correct on that?

If the hero pool stayed the same (50 heroes in the pool currently), yes, then you would obtain a specific hero every 50*20 = 1000 weeks, which is more or less 19 years.

However, the pool grows every month, so that it becomes increasingly harder to get a specific hero.

On the beginning of June I’ve done a simulation trying to find out how long it would take to get a specific hero assuming the building will never change and one hero gets added each month:

@TomSnow

Assuming you start today (1st of June 2020), it takes until June 2116 until you have a 50% chance or better to get a specific HoTM . In other words, if 100 people started training today, 50 of them would have Gravemaker after 96 years

PS: For a 60% chance to get Gravemaker you would have to train until 2295, for a 70% chance until 3066…

[Dan7]

Perhaps folks shouldn’t use this building to get a specific hero, but instead just be happy with what they get?

[yelnats_24]

June vs September

96 vs 424?

Well, what I use is expected frequency approach but as this case is not linear (in non-linear case mean and median will differ), it would have different result with the calculation that based of 50% chance of getting it. If it start in June, the expected frequency will reach 1 in 398 years.

Your calculation is median based.
My calculation is mean (average) based.

If retraining start in June 2020, 50% of retrainers will get GM before 96 years, but on average, retrainers get the GM around 398 years.

[DGERic]

@Sid1207

It doesn’t decrease enjoyment but it was touted as something that’ll boost enjoyment. After having played this game for 1.5+ years everything is verging on territory of becoming boring chore.

Titans - Take one of the 5 teams and play. I don’t even have to think anymore because it’s a drill I have run hundreds of times because my team composition rarely changes. Only fun part is seeing scores which rarely diverge since base teams & items rarely diverge
War - Literally use same hero teams almost every war. Only interesting part is how I pick opponents and handle boards
Raids - This one can be interesting because it forces you to evaluate opponent defense and form team accordingly. However most defenses on diamond are so unoriginal, I don’t even have to think lot of times and again I just pick one of my 5 raid teams. And honestly I don’t blame player’s originality because people are so afraid of making mistakes with mats and emblems, they rather just tread tried-and-tested path
Tavern of Legends - Yeah this was interesting for first time but I think it’ll be same drill again this time
Tourneys - This probably has most variety in terms of play. I try levelling various 3* and 4* and experimenting them in various scenarios. I wish return was better to a degree it allowed me to more freely experiment. I don’t have a lot of emblems and nor can I afford to move them on weekly basis.
Challenge Events - Beat similar thing every month with one of the five teams (in each rarity). Competing to top is too tedious and going for middle tiers (below first 3 tiers) isn’t as rewarding enough compared to effort needed
Rare Quests & Map levels - meh…I look forward to S3 bosses similar to Dark Lord, Ursena, Yimir or An-Windr even. Otherwise most of the levels feel same. If they appear difficult then they are only artificially difficult in the sense mobs and bosses have pretty high stats

For me and lot of my fellow players the enjoyment has already been drained out. I don’t even summon as much (C2P soon going F2P) as them, and yet I have so many 5* duplicates. 4* dupes get eaten in first 10 mins. After you see 5th Elkanen from TC20, or 3rd Justice from portal while first two are 1.1, or trying to summon Falcon and you see your 67th Boril…you get jaded.

Hero academy was one thing lot of us clung to thinking we will finally get something exciting and novel to focus on. I don’t want to catch all heroes nor do I want to become #1 or anything like that. I just want to try some new team composition or some new ability without having to pour in hundreds to thousands of $s. I know someone will bring up the age old argument “You don’t need HotM or premium heroes to enjoy the game”. Maybe you don’t but I’m bored AF with same 20 5* classics. Even if I level all of this dupes idk what food that’ll do.

1000x this.

I’ll just add this to the list of chores: multiple days of farming the **** out of Atlantis Rising S2:1-4 for Backpacks & Recruits -and- Challenge Rare-3 for best XP/Flag in the game along with 1*/2* hero drops.

[zakyus]

if we just end up with 1 is better then 0 and that is all you should expect, then pls release the HA. there is no need for such discussions and beta testing. just release it as soon as possible

[Sid1207]

I forgot AR…yeah that is boring AF too. If it weren’t for Titans and events, I wouldn’t even bother. Farming backpacks has also lost its charm because there’s rarely anything interesting to level.
After level 60+ level up rewards seem have diminishing returns…so why even bother farming XP even you know.

[Carl]

@TomSnow

However, the pool grows every month, so that it becomes increasingly harder to get a specific hero.

Thanks, didn’t even think about for some reason, I was just doing a quick napkin calculation to see what it would look like in broad strokes.

@yelnats_24

In another words, on average, you need 424 years to get Gravemaker from HA.

Wow! Appreciate you working that out. Maybe by that time they’ll actually have a decent red legendary that’s better than GM

[diesdas]

@Dan7

Perhaps folks shouldn’t use this building to get a specific hero, but instead just be happy with what they get?

Yes for sure, as long as it isn’t Khagan.
But someone voiced his concern that it would break the game or at least the diversity of the game, when the odds were slightly increased:

@Magnum16

If you make the odds to high for rare 5*s eventually everyone 2400+ will have the exact same optimal team. It’ll be even worse than the current boring Telly meta. This would drive me to quit.

That’s when the math began… btw, kudos to @yelnats_24 and @TomSnow for calculating that. Unfortunately I am not good enough at math for that. I know how to calculate my odds and pot odds when I play poker, but that’s about it

[TheEyes]

@Magnum16

I’m going to have to counter this. One good feature of this game is diversity of teams. If you make the odds to high for rare 5*s eventually everyone 2400+ will have the exact same optimal team. It’ll be even worse than the current boring Telly meta. This would drive me to quit.

Ironically, a more diverse set of heroes in people’s hands might actually break the Telluria meta. Part of the reason Telluria is so strong on defense is that Red S1 5* is a barren wasteland of useless crap; giving everyone access to better Red 5*s should break that logjam.

[Cruzcampo]

I get the feeling they could still salvage the game if they just add a ‘0’ in the right place on the HA10 summon chance.

[Quinn3]

@diesdas

Yes for sure, as long it isn’t Khagan.

Hey, I resent that. Khagan is the one S1 hero I’m missing.

[diesdas]

You can have mine. I even regret bringing him to 3-70. One of the least used hero in my roster.

[WaffleWarriorBrister]

I thought there was supposed to be an update or announcement or something this week? Anything new to report zephyr1?

[BigLordF]

That’s all a fine sentiment and I agree with most of it but you just explained @Quinn3’s point in much more detail.

After a while, when you have tried all the aspects of this game repeatedly and you have build a good enough roster so that none of those is a challenge anymore, the answer is not easier access to old heroes. It’s irrational to think that having more and better heroes will make you enjoy again anything of what you have listed in your very thorough list. Honestly, how would a new Gravemaker improve your experience as you described it?

What you need is new challenges, not new heroes. Same goes for me and thousands of players who have played this game for a while. A new hero will excite you for a short moment but will become part of the boredom soon when you’re doing the same old same old over and over again.

[Akaihana]

The only good improvment I can see that would please everyone is that level 10 give you an hero you dont have in your current roster.