Defensive Mana - Troops/Differences/Turn- Based Mana Calculations and it's Discovery

Let’s finish the magic speed.

First, Cristobal with 11% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 22 (+11%) getting mana from 3 regular turns and 4 turns with -34%.
641 = 300 x 1.11 + 400 x (1.11 - 0.34)


=> magic1 is not charged, as expected

Next is Cristobal with 9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 3 regular turns and 7 turns with -64%.
642 = 300 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)



=> magic1 is charged, as expected

Then we have Cristobal again with 9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 6 regular turns, 4 more regular turns, then 3 turns with -24% and 4 turns with -64%.
1283 = 600 x 1.09 + 400 x (1.09 - 0.22) + 300 x (1.09 - 0.22 - 0.24) + 400 x (1.09 - 0.22 - 0.64)





=> magic2 is not charged, as expected

Finally, we have Nadezhda with +18% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 23 (+13%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 6 regular turns and 6 more regular turns.
1284 = 600 x 1.18 + 600 x (1.18 - 0.22)



=> magic 2 is charged, as expected

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I’ll get on that bro

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So, if we consider Magic heroes on the defence and “only” mana from turns, there is no deviation from the expectation due to unclear overspill?
Great news! :+1:

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I have calculated the following breakpoints for heroes with Styx speed (in offense):

Charge 1, starting with a reduction to 5 tiles at a 20% mana bonus:
20%
50%
100%

Charge 2, starting with a reduction to 7 tiles at a 20% mana bonus:
20%
43%
67%
100%

Charge 3, starting with a reduction to 11 tiles at an 18% mana bonus:
18%
30%
50%
75%
100%
150%

How do your values compare; has anyone perhaps verified some of these breakpoints already?

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Important: These figures apply only to tiles that haven’t been ghosted.

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Here’s the remaining data on the 5* ninjas on defense.

The 572 MP for charge1 have been screenshot verified in my posts 75 (571 MP = not charged) and 82 (572 MP = charged) above, so I’ll only go for charge2 and charge3 now.

Test 1 with 5* Topaz 3-70 with 7% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 7 (+7%) getting 1143 MP from 10 regular turns and 1 turn with -34%:
1143 = 1000 x 1.07 + 100 x (1.07 - 0.34)



=> charge2 is not charged from 1143 MP, as expected

Test 2 with Topaz with 0% mana generation bonus getting 1144 MP from 10 regular turns and 4 turns with -64%:
1144 = 1000 x 1.0 + 400 x (1.0 - 0.64)




=> charge2 is charged from 1144 MP, as expected

Test 3 with Topaz with 5% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 2 (+5%) getting 1715 MP from 14 regular turns, 1 turn with -24% and 4 turns with -64%:
1715 = 1400 x 1.05 + 100 x (1.05 - 0.24) + 400 x (1.05 - 0.64)





=> charge3 is not charged with 1715 MP, as expected

Test 4 with Topaz with 5% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 2 (+5%) getting 1716 MP from 14 regular turns and 6 turns with -64%:
1716 = 1400 x 1.05 + 600 x (1.05 - 0.64)





=> charge3 is charged with 1716 MP, as expected

As a result, (5*) ninjas on defense are verified as well, so only the tide speed is left now.

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Following your list I’ve prepared a similar table now:

total tiles mana generation bous tiles in styx1 tiles in styx2/3 MP in styx1 MP in styx2/3 total MP required MP
mana modifier 0 100
Styx 1 5 20 5 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 1 4 50 4 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 1 3 100 3 0 600 0 600 600
Styx 2 8 20 5 3 600 660 1260 1200
Styx 2 7 43 5 2 715 486 1201 1200
Styx 2 6 67 4 2 668 534 1202 1200
Styx 2 5 100 3 2 600 600 1200 1200
Styx 3 11 19 6 5 714 1095 1809 1800
Styx 3 10 30 5 5 650 1150 1800 1800
Styx 3 9 50 4 5 600 1250 1850 1800
Styx 3 8 75 4 4 700 1100 1800 1800
Styx 3 7 100 3 4 600 1200 1800 1800
Styx 3 6 150 3 3 750 1050 1800 1800

Those are the same numbers except for

  • styx2 goes with 8 tiles at 20%
  • styx3 goes with 11 tiles at 19% (with 18% I get 1798 MP)

I think so far I have only verified that styx1 is charged with 5 tiles at 20%

Yo just got done finalizing a merge so after war I’ll start testing on the tides heroes @Zack

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My Godfather , my best friend and mom died this year so I don’t understand half of your discussion with others.
Can you send me basics of tactics for dragon s, raid tournaments and I have a problem with leveling food amd metal. It stops at 20 half of them.

Thanks Ghost

Don’t worry (be happy)for them. They are properly rewarded for this hard job. :crossed_swords::alarm_clock::moneybag::partying_face::muscle:

Been some time, work is getting crazier than usual - it’s getting closer to the end of the year.

We wanted to check tile mana for 4* to verify that they also get 75 MP for each combo1 tile, so here are two tests with a fast 4*.
As we now know, fast 4* charge with 899 MP on defense.

Test 1: Mist with +16% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 4 regular turns, 2 combo1 tile and 5 turns with -64% for 898 MP.
898 = 400 x 1.16 + 2 x 75 x 1.16 + 500 x (1.16 - 0.64)

Expectation: 4* get 75 mana for each combo1 tile just like the 5* do, so 898 are not enough to charge Mist



=> Mist is not charged, as expected

Test 2: Mist with +16% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 7 regular turns and 1 combo1 tile for 899 MP.
899 = 700 x 1.16 + 75 x 1.16

Expectation: Mist will get 75 MP from a combo1 tile and charge from the 899 MP


=> Mist is charged, as expected
=> 4* get 75 MP from a combo1 tile, as expected

Bonus test 3: Fast 5* Akkarog with 11% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 21 (+11%) getting mana from 2 regular turns, 3 combo1 tiles and 6 turns with -34% for 933.75 MP.
933.75 = 200 x 1.11 + 3 x 75 x 1.11 + 600 x (1.11 - 0.34) = 934?

Expectation: The 0.75 mana from the three tiles is added and then gets rounded up and Akkarog is charged from the 933.75 MP. Otherwise the mana for each tile is treated separately and gets rounded down and he is not charged from the 933.75 MP.



=> Akkarog is not charged
=> The MP for each tile gets treated separately

Bonus test 4: Fast 5* Akkarog with 14% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting mana from 7 regular turns, 1 combo1 tile and 1 turn with -64% for 933.5 MP.
933.5 = 700 x 1.14 + 75 x 1.14 + 100 x (1.14 - 0.64) = 934?

Expectation: The .5 MP for the tile gets rounded up and Akkarog gets charged from the 933.5 MP



=> Akkarog is not charged
=> The 0.5 MP gets rounded down for tiles

@CrazyChemist3891 Sorry, I didn’t find the time yet to continue with the overspill mana tests, but I also want to first find a suitable overview table for these tests that allows to check on each mana overspill for a systematic approach :nerd_face: :innocent:

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Which is what I expected too :smiley: And it need to be remembered when working on overspill of mana charges as only one tile does the overspill. The tiles before have the current (before getting hit by tiles of this combo rank) mana modifier (if any), the tile that does the overspill as the same mana modifier and then the other tiles of the same combo gets the mana modifier of the next charge applied (if any, no modifier for ninja for example). At least, that’s how I expect it to work.

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I won’t be in a place where I can check on the tides heroes until the 1st. Been really wrapped up lately

Great conclusion! :+1:
That result actually came as a side effect for the test :rofl:

No worries, but I may go for some attempts against a Phorcys in the meantime. My tests with combo2 tiles went phenomenally well, so I feel lucky that tests against Phorcys may also go somewhat smooth.

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New tests for combo2 tiles because:

So how does the progression for tile combos go?
We verified that combo1 tiles give 75 MP.
Do combo2 tiles give 10 MP less, i.e. 65 MP, or 10% less, i.e. 67.5 MP, which then is either 67 MP or 68 MP?

Test 1: 5* Anne with +2% mana generation bonus from her family bonus with Sargasso getting mana from 7 regular turns, 1 combo2 tile and 4 turns with -64% for 934 MP or 932 MP.
65 x 1.02 = 66.3 MP
67 x 1.02 = 68.34 MP
68 x 1.02 = 69.36 MP

934 MP = 700 x 1.02 + 67 x 1.02 + 400 x (1.02 - 0.64) = charged
933 MP = 700 x 1.02 + 65 x 1.02 + 400 x (1.02 - 0.64) = not charged

Expectation: -10% progression and therefore Anne will charge.




=> Anne is charged
=> combo2 tile gives at least 67 MP
=> combo2 tile gives 10% less, not -10 MP

Test 2: 5* Lianna with +9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting mana from 5 regular turns, 1 combo2 tile and 7 turns with -64%.
67 x 1.09 = 73.03 = 73
68 x 1.09 = 74.12 = 74

934 = 500 x 1.09 + 68 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)
933 = 500 x 1.09 + 67 x 1.09 + 700 x (1.09 - 0.64)

Expectation: :man_shrugging:




=> Lianna is charged
=> combo2 tile gives 68 MP (the 75 x 0.9 = 67.5 gets rounded up)

I have no idea yet on how to set up a reasonable test for a combo3 tile :thinking: :upside_down_face:

edit: Is there a raid video somewhere with a long cascade with combo 10 or more where we can see, if the mana bar is increasing at all from combo 9 onwards?

I might very well remember incorrectly, but I think that from approx. combo 9 onwards the raid target gets basically no more mana from tiles or close to no more mana.

If that would be correct, the following progression may apply:

combo mana points factor
1 75 1
2 68 0,9
3 54 0,8
4 38 0,7
5 23 0,6
6 12 0,5
7 5 0,4
8 2 0,3
9 0 0,2
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Well, well, I found a youtube video with a combo13 cascade here from Yukimura Sanada. The cascade starts at 15:34. Combo 13 happens at 15:46, combo 14 at 15:48.

It’s a 4* bloody battle tournament from 3 years ago, so there are no mana troops involved. At 4-70+18 Chao may have the +2% mana generation bonus, but that should be too small to have an impact on this rough analysis.

The comparison of the two mana bars from Chao shows a slight increase from the 5 combo13 tiles
=> so the defenders still get a tiny amount of mana even after combo9
=> looks like there is indeed a minimum base amount of mana that the defenders get per tile

I took screenshots and tried to analyse the pixels. The full mana bar is something like 58 pixels. The difference between the two mana bars is approx. 2-3 pixels from the 5 tiles. As a fast 4* Chao’s mana bar is 899 MP.

58 pixels = 899 MP
5 tiles = 2 pixels = 2 x 899 / 58 = 31 MP => 6.2 MP per tile
5 tiles = 3 pixels = 3 x 899 / 58 = 46.5 MP => 9.3 MP per tile
=> So the combo13 tiles give something in the range of 6.2 - 9.3 MP

The only way I found to get a similar value at 9 or 10 tiles and onwards is to apply the 10% progression as follows:

combo 1 = 75 MP = 75 MP x 100% (and rounded) (verified)
combo 2 = 68 MP = 75 MP x 90% (and rounded) (verified)
combo 3 = 60 MP = 75 MP x 80% (and rounded)
combo 4 = 53 MP = 75 MP x 70% (and rounded)
combo 5 = 45 MP = 75 MP x 60% (and rounded)
combo 6 = 38 MP = 75 MP x 50% (and rounded)
combo 7 = 30 MP = 75 MP x 40% (and rounded)
combo 8 = 23 MP = 75 MP x 30% (and rounded)
combo 9 = 15 MP = 75 MP x 20% (and rounded)
combo 10 = 8 MP = 75 MP x 10% (and rounded)
combo 11 and higher = 8 MP = 75 MP x 10% (and rounded) (approximately correct)

=> The 8 MP for a combo13 tile falls well into the range that I roughly identified from the mana bars in the video

@Damirius and @G_H_O_S_T please have a look at these pixels as well

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Got the data on the tide heroes. Phorcys was leveled to 3-70, which allowed him to survive the tests.

Test 1: 5* Phorcys with +9% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 11 (+9%) getting 933 MP from 7 regular turns and 2 turns with -24% for fast tide speed.
933 = 700 x 1.09 + 200 x (1.09 - 0.24)

Expectation: His fast tide speed won’t be charged with 933 MP



=> Phorcys’ fast tide speed is not charged with 933 MP, as expected

Test 2: 5* Phorcys with +10% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 3 (+5%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting 934 MP from 6 regular turns, 3 turns with -34% and 1 turn with -64% for fast tide speed.
934 = 600 x 1.10 + 300 x (1.10 - 0.34) + 100 x (1.10 - 0.64)

Expectation: Phorcys’ fast tide speed will charge with 934 MP



=> Phorcys’ fast tide speed is charged with 934 MP, as expected

Test 3: 5* Phorcys with +10% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 3 (+5%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting 933 MP from 9 regular turns and 8 turns with -64% for average tide speed.
933 = 900 x (1.10 - 0.25) + 800 x (1.10 - 0.25 - 0.64)

Expectation: He won’t be charged with 933 MP for his average tide speed





=> Phorcys’ average tide speed is not charged with 933 MP, as expected

Test 4: 5* Phorcys with +10% mana generation bonus from mana troops level 3 (+5%) and Zhabog (+5%) getting 934 MP from 10 regular turns and 4 turns with -64% for average tide speed.
934 = 1000 x (1.10 - 0.25) + 400 x (1.10 - 0.25 - 0.64)

Expectation: Phorcys’ average tide speed will be charged




=> Phorcys’ average tide speed is charged with 934 MP, as expected

=> With this we have screenshot verified all mana speeds on defense

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With our new understanding of the mana bar of the defense team it is unclear, if the amount of mana you steal with heroes like Onatel, R&N, Ithar, etc is based on the larger mana bar of the defense or if this percentage is converted to the base mana bar.

Test 1: Fast 5* Obakan of offense with +16% mana generation bonus getting mana from 6 tiles and R&N’s 50% mana steal from a charged fast 5* (Phorcys with fast tide speed)
934 x 50% / 5 = 93.4 = 93 MP for each hero or
800 x 50% / 5 = 80 MP for each hero

For my Obakan that would either mean
803 = 600 x 1.16 + 93 x 1.16 = charged
788 = 600 x 1.16 + 80 x 1.16 = not charged

Expectation: You get what you take, so it should be 93 MP for each hero and Obakan will be charged


=> Obakan is charged
=> you steal mana based on the larger mana bar of the defense, as expected

Test 2: Fast 5* Obakan of offense with +16% mana generation bonus getting mana from 6 tiles and R&N’s 50% mana steal from a charged fast 4* (Woolerton)
899 x 50% / 5 = 89.9 = 90 MP for each hero or
899 x 50% / 5 = 89.9 = 89 MP for each hero

For my Obakan that would either mean
800 = 600 x 1.16 + 90 x 1.16 = charged
799 = 600 x 1.16 + 89 x 1.16 = not charged

Expectation: Probably gets rounded up and Obakan will be charged

=> Obakan is not charged
=> The 899 x 50% / 5 = 89.9 gets rounded down

Mana stealing
I love R&N’s 50% mana steal (and the rest of her skills) and I’m currently leveling Ithar, who has a 35% mana steal.

So how much mana do Ithar and R&N steal then? And which mana generation bonus is required to charge a fast hero with 6 tiles when R&N or Ithar steal mana from a fully charged fast hero?

Ithar stealing from a 5*:
With 21% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and Ithar stealing from a charged fast 5*.

Mana points 35% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 572 200 40
Magic 1 642 224 44
Styx 1 700 245 49
very fast 759 265 53
fast 934 326 65
Styx 2 1051 367 73
Charge 2 1144 400 80
average 1168 408 81
slayer 1284 449 89
slow/styx3 1401 490 98
Magic 2 1436 502 100
very slow 1576 551 110
Charge 3 1716 600 120

Ithar stealing from a 4*
With 21% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and Ithar stealing from a charged fast 4*.

Mana points 35% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 550 192 38
Magic 1 618 216 43
Styx 1 674 235 47
very fast 730 255 51
fast 899 314 62
Styx 2 1011 353 70
Charge 2 1101 385 77
average 1124 393 78
slayer 1236 432 86
slow/styx3 1348 471 94
Magic 2 1382 483 96
very slow 1517 530 106
Charge 3 1652 578 115

Ithar stealing from a 3*:
With 22% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and Ithar stealing from a charged fast 3*.

Mana points 35% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 529 185 37
Magic 1 594 207 41
Styx 1 648 226 45
very fast 702 245 49
Fast / tide 864 302 60
Styx 2 972 340 68
Charge 2 1059 370 74
average 1081 378 75
slayer 1189 416 83
slow/styx3 1297 453 90
Magic 2 1329 465 93
very slow 1459 510 102
Charge 3 1589 556 111

R&N stealing from a 5*:
With 15% 16% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and R&N stealing from a charged fast 5*.

Mana points 50% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 572 286 57
Magic 1 642 321 64
Styx 1 700 350 70
very fast 759 379 75
fast 934 467 93
Styx 2 1051 525 105
Charge 2 1144 572 114
average 1168 584 116
slayer 1284 642 128
slow/styx3 1401 700 140
Magic 2 1436 718 143
very slow 1576 788 157
Charge 3 1716 858 171

R&N stealing from a 4*
With 16% 17% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and R&N stealing from a charged fast 4*.

Mana points 50% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 550 275 55
Magic 1 618 309 61
Styx 1 674 337 67
very fast 730 365 73
fast 899 449 89
Styx 2 1011 505 101
Charge 2 1101 550 110
average 1124 562 112
slayer 1236 618 123
slow/styx3 1348 674 134
Magic 2 1382 691 138
very slow 1517 758 151
Charge 3 1652 826 165

R&N stealing from a 3*:
With 16% 17% mana generation bonus a fast hero will charge with 6 tiles and R&N stealing from a charged fast 3*.

Mana points 50% steal MP for each of 5 heroes
Charge 1 529 264 52
Magic 1 594 297 59
Styx 1 648 324 64
very fast 702 351 70
fast 864 432 86
Styx 2 972 486 97
Charge 2 1059 529 105
average 1081 540 108
slayer 1189 594 118
slow/styx3 1297 648 129
Magic 2 1329 664 132
very slow 1459 729 145
Charge 3 1589 794 158

edit: corrected the required mana generation bonus for R&N

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The last section is very nice table and great info on how “practically” make R&N and Ithar help charge other heroes on 6 tiles … @PlayForFun do you think this info is appropriate to pin on the top (maybe just a link) of R&N and Ithar threads ?


Just think for fun that it may be possible Ithar help R&N to charge on 6 tiles, and R&N steal further 50% … So for some average (esp. Yellow/red) speed heroes with suitable bonus can also charge in 6 tiles with 35%+50% mana stealt from both heroes ? – Ithar also has elemental link +10% mana gen, and with R&N, it will applies to all in 2024
----**

Thanks again for your invaluable hard work

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@Zack Following your way of calculation, it seems possible that this scenario is possible:

We match red 6 tiles, then match yellow 6 tiles. Then,

Ithar steal full-charged 5*-fast , to make R&N full-mana
(with 16% mana-gen-bonus on R&N, like Obakan above)

R&N steal full-charged 5*-average, and make C2 LiXiu full-mana
with 27%-mana-gen-bonus on C2 LiXiu plus Ithar’s +10% EL

But I am a new student just to learn your formula , not sure if I calculate things correctly ? :grin:

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