🧪 The Beta Beat (v23) [NOW RELEASED] – Sharing the Big Picture on What's Going on in Beta: Stronghold 22/23 & Alchemy Lab, New Challenge Event Heroes, New Knights of Avalon & Pirates of Corellia Challenge Events, Costumes, November/December HOTM

[Csoki]

I’ve done a quick and dirty math spreadsheet based on the latest info provided. Keep in mind that beta is beta, subject to change etc. I thought that this format may be a little bit easier to grasp. I wanted to find out how the different levels work out for the 10000 Alkashards. That’s basically the point i can see in the whole Alchemy Lab system, aside from rolling on slim chances of getting some items you would actually want (and also paying a ton of gems in most cases).

And here you can see my data.

Spreadsheet here

It’s somewhat hard to draw clear conclusions from this (and also using just solely one type of transmutation isn’t a real case either). Anyway, here are some of my thoughts (considering only running 1 transmutation at a time).

Transmutations with gem cost:
It’s easy to see that the fastest is the lvl10 transmutation with 63 days time. However it costs 2500 gems. It’s a pretty steep cost, and requires 4* asc materials. If one doesn’t have that much asc materials, for the same price but 105 days time lvl9 yields the same results. lvl8 just going bankrupt 5000 gems and 200 days. lvl7 is less going bankrupt and faster with 143 days.

Transmutations without gem cost:
The fastest here is lvl6 with 166 days, all other taking 208 days.

Taking other costs into consideration:
Okay so fastest with gems is lvl10 and without is lvl6. Food cost is pretty much showing a decrease as you use higher level transmutations. That’s not really a big concern, since food tends not to be a problem most of the time. But now the item costs… now those are something too. 6000 2* ascension materials for 10000 shards at lvl6 transmutations? And cheapskating it with lvl1 transmutation taking 150000 1* ascension materials seems like a nigh impossible task for most players.

Final thoughts:
Well, Alkashards may look good, but they smell bad for me. Taking an average player, not willing to spend too many gems on transmutating… Maybe a year to get free 4* ascension items or emblems? For whales, if willing to spend 2250 gems every week for a year to get 6 free 4* ascension items? Yeah, right?

[Checker]

Your numbers are off.

Here are the key information:
if you want to use 0 gems, you can get 10k shards in about 70 days, but the food cost is huge. You will unlikely to be able to do more than 3 a year.

If you willing to spend a little bit of gems (2 gems a day) you can get 10k shards in 64 days (one level that cost gem + 2 level that are free). The cost for food here is also a lot, but probably can do it 5-6 times a year.

If you willing to spend unlimited gems, you can get 10k shards in 29 days. The food cost here is a small faction of the free levels.

[MysterySpin]

Having read through everything and attempted to layout this bag of snakes I personally get the following conclusions:

1. Ascension material rarities need re-classifying

It’s pretty obvious when you look at the numbers of each ascension material in your inventory that farmable 3* materials and unfarmable 3* materials are not remotely the same rarity tier. Given how they’re treated differently by AL6 and AL9 in current iteration the developers acknowledge this. Re-classifying 3* unfarmable AMs as 4* AMs and the current 4* AMs as 5* AMs could simplify a solution here. For the rest of this comment the solutions I present assumes such a re-classification so 3* Farmable now 3*, 3* Unfarmable now 4* and 4* AM now 5* for remainder of comment.

2. Upgrading Battle Items

The vast majority of battle items we get we craft ourselves. Assuming we’re not dumb enough to craft items we wouldn’t ever use these look set to be the least used ALs. Indeed given the item restrictions currently in place in each event tier it is arguable whether we actually need to UPGRADE battle items as opposed to converting them to another item we used more frequently on the same tier. Indeed amalgamating the Battle Item labs into 1 lab level that could handle converting any battle item to another battle item of the same tier – with the resource and time costs depending on item queued up could free up other lab levels to expand a solution.

3. The best solution with any chance of success.

@grzechol

In most games every item dropped by monsters is either useful or can be sold to obtain some in-game currency that can be in turn exchanged for something useful.

Given the introduction of Alkashards and general direction the developers are taking Alchemy Lab I think the above has the essence of a best possible solution we could hope for. Turning Alkashards into a full blown non-purchasable currency that can only be obtained by breaking down items into Alkashards and using them to buy our choice of item/bundle of items. This would allows players to choose whether to slowly save up for a single major Ascension Mat or to get a bundle of Backpacks.

With the points from 1 and 2 in mind here’s what the Alchemy Lab levels, conversion rates and Alkashard costs for items could look like (solution given is for a system that doesn’t require gems to break-down/convert items):

Click if you want the tables

Proposed Alchemy Lab Levels

Level	Description	Alkashards Produced
AL1	1 x 1* Crafting to Alkashards	1 Alkashard
AL2	1* AM to Alkashards	10 Alkashards
AL3	2* Crafting to Alkashards	30 Alkashards
AL4	2* AM to Alkashards	250 Alkashards
AL5	3* Crafting to Alkashards	600 Alkashards
AL6	3* AM to Alkashards	4,000 Alkashards
AL7	4* Crafting to Alkashards	6,000 Alkashards
AL8	4* AM to Alkashards	50k Alkashards
AL9	Battle Item to Battle Item of same tier	0 Alkashards
AL10	5* AM to Alkashards	1m Alkashards

Proposed Alkashard Item Purchase Rates

Players would specify the item/item bundle within the given tiers.

Item	Quantity	Alkashard Cost
5* AM	x1	1.5m Alkashards
Class Emblems	x100	1m Alkashards
Titan Item Bundle	x1	1m Alkshards
4* AM	x1	75k Alkashards
4* Crafting	x1	9k Alkashards
3* Crafting	x10	9k Alkashards
3* AM	x1	6k Alkashards
2* Crafting	x100	4.5k Alkashards
2* AM	x10	3.75k Alkashards
1* AM	x100	1.5k Alkashards

Now whilst I think this may be the best solution we could hope for I still think the chances of such a thing would be pretty low. For one the developers seem ultra-intent on shoving gem costs of some sort into the equation but also in this solution it becomes possible to indirectly to use your crafting supplies to save towards ascension items. Whilst I’ve tried to look for what seems equivalent values (which by all means could change) I reckon the crafting to AM possibility may be a bridge too far.

4. A likely good-enough solution

The fact that the rarest tiers of ascension materials feature prominently in both seasonal calendars and flash deals SGG is well aware of the monetary value of those items and the differing values items command based on their rarity. As such I significantly doubt this company will allow us to upgrade an item from a moderate value tier to an item in the highly valuable tier without extracting a suitable cost. As such I think the chances that gem costs will be eliminated from upgrading items to their most valuable tier is practically zero – that being said I do think AL9 is probably overpriced and should be reduced but then again this wouldn’t be the first overpriced thing in this game by a country mile.

So whilst I don’t think the player base will necessarily be 100% happy because of this I think some small changes could be made for the Alchemy Lab to be begrudgingly accepted and still have a use even if it fell short of expectations.

Click for proposed Alchemy Lab level solution

Proposed Alchemy Lab Levels

Level	Description	Gem Costs Yes/No
AL1	Upgrade 1* Crafting to 2* Crafting	No
AL2	Upgrade 1* AM to 2* AM	No
AL3	Upgrade 2* Crafting to 3* Crafting	No
AL4	Upgrade 2* AM to 3* AM	No
AL5	Upgrade 3* Crafting to 4* Crafting	Yes
AL6	Upgrade 3* AM to 4* AM	Possibly
AL7	Convert Crafting Item to a Crafting Item of same tier	No
AL8	Convert Battle Item to a Battle Item of same tier	No
AL9	Upgrade 4* AM to 5* AM	Yes
AL10	Convert AM to an AM of the same tier	No

The solution abolishes Battle Item upgrades in favour of one level to convert them within their tier (resource and time costs varying depending on item given to convert). The space freed up by 3 Battle Item levels becoming 1 is taken up by 1 additional conversion level for AMs post re-classification (refer back to point 1 of post) and introducing Convert Crafting Item to Crafting Item of same tier. Final Guaranteed Epic Transmutation now becomes Convert AM to an AM of the same tier. This level can then be used either by people wanting to convert a 5* AM to another 5* AM or instead could use it to change a bunch of 1* AMs into backpacks for example. Resource and time costs again vary based on items given to it to convert.

Final change being the removal of gem costs from what was Guaranteed Epic Transmutation but now converting a 5* AM to another 5* AM in Convert AM to another AM of same tier. To put it in business terms for SG:

If there are no associated gem costs (just resource/time constraints) to converting the AM within the same tier then when a big flash deal or seasonal deal pops up in which the rarest AMs in the deal are ones that the player has in surplus they still have good incentive to buy the deal for the potential to convert it to an AM of the same rarity they have in deficit. It is here that you indirectly profit from the addition of the feature when they buy a deal they might not have due to the presence of the new feature. In contrast if there are additional gem costs to just gamble on trying to convert the AM in the deal then the deal becomes a lot less desirable and more likely to be passed on.

Further business consideration is that given that 50% of the time more than 4 transmutations of Guaranteed Epic (currently 1000+ gems) to get a specifically desired AM and that for 1 in 20 people they will spend more than 4000 gems and not get what they were after that this mechanic will likely drive away a number of long term players (which in turn affects alliances and the community) and may most acutely annoy your bigger spenders that your hope of a small short term game from the charge could result in a loss over the longer term.

Whilst the charging of gems to upgrade lower value items to the highest value level will not be popular I think the community would accept as necessary (within reasonable limits of the values set), I think ultimately the real damage would come from charging gems for people who’ve had the misfortune for their AM spread to be unbalanced to re-roll items they have done the work to earn (or perhaps already paid for) to try rectify their imbalance. Solution also adding converting within tiers helps address desire of players to do that for the likes of backpack conversion.

@StephenNap89

I seem to be the only one upset about that, so I doubt it’ll be changed. Oh well.

Allow me to add my voice to the chorus of disappointed SH22 and SH24 are just arbitrary extenders. Thought from the moment they were mentioned that the additional Advanced Farms, Mines, Storages etc should be unlocked in SH22 and SH24 respectively with the Alchemy Lab and Hero Academy being the lone additions in SH23 and SH25 so each has something happening but until now didn’t see any other comments to think it was anything but a lost cause.

[zephyr1]

@MysterySpin Thanks for the thoughtful proposal! I’ve cross-quoted it into the private Beta feedback thread to ensure it will be visible for the game designers.

[MysterySpin]

Thanks I hope it helps things, I have my fingers crossed that it’s still comprehendible by the end. I should have gone to sleep a long time ago and it’s a points like that my spelling and grammar goes haywire or I start making up words… Gloobublup.

[Edamer]

Over complicating what should be a simple feature.
3 Warm cape for one Trap tools - throw in some food and iron costs because that seems to be the way and sorted.

There should never be gems involved, people will quit.

If “RNG” really is involved there should be a simple mechanic to change my 30 capes my 40 sturdy shields into a trap tool which I have 0 of. even though I have more of the other type of heroes.
What is to stop people thinking that they make a particular item more scarce to encourage you to buy more? Because that will definitely be my main thought. This is basically gambling, well it’s not basically gambling it is gambling.

This is at best RNG * RNG, at worst it’s limiting the amount of an item into the game to enforce spending. Times have changed loot boxes are being withdrawn from games all over yet here we have a developer doing the opposite.

Remember this is an item I have already earned that I simply what to trade for another item of the same value.

[ProfLoki]

I like your ideas:

Reorganizing the 3 star farmable and 3 star unfarmable stuff is needed. It’s so confusing and not practical to have these as one rarity. It would probably also help never player to better value these items.

I also share your opinion that converting battle items is not that important. The possibility to create bsckpacks worh the lab is often demanded by players (like myself) and would be much more useful.

[zephyr1]

I’ve watched a few video reviews now and am getting pretty tempted…

[DracoLovesRi]

Well, the low-mid levels are useless; they need to drop the food cost at low levels completely. Getting 1.4 alkashards for 3000 gems is meh, considering no heroes are popping out. The upper lab seems really dependent on the costume implementation. Players will be interested if they need ingredients for costumes, but this requires careful balancing. Of course, the costumes better not be duds too.

[samoapop]

Having read through everything and attempted to layout this bag of snakes I personally get the following conclusions:

1. Ascension material rarities need re-classifying

It’s pretty obvious when you look at the numbers of each ascension material in your inventory that farmable 3* materials and unfarmable 3* materials are not remotely the same rarity tier. Given how they’re treated differently by AL6 and AL9 in current iteration the developers acknowledge this. Re-classifying 3* unfarmable AMs as 4* AMs and the current 4* AMs as 5* AMs could simplify a solution here. For the rest of this comment the solutions I present assumes such a re-classification so 3* Farmable now 3*, 3* Unfarmable now 4* and 4* AM now 5* for remainder of comment.

Off-topic, but this has been suggested before in the ideas and feature requests section (by me): Adjusting star rating of ascension materials

[TKristensen]

What is the 5* am for?

[zephyr1]

5* heroes.

@MysterySpin and @samoapop are suggesting changing the rarity classifications to clarify the difference in rarity between 3* farmables and unfarmables by changing the unfarmables to 4* instead fof 3*.

To do that and have it make sense, the existing 4* Ascension Materials would also change to 5*.

[TKristensen]

Then the drop chance for a 5* mats will be at an insanly %

[zephyr1]

They’re only suggesting changing how they’re referred to, nothing else.

It’s just a name change, effectively.

[TKristensen]

But the higher * the harder it is to get. Dont think they will change that.

[zephyr1]

Ok, let me try this again.

Imagine that the 3* Ascension Materials, both farmable and unfarmable, were all called BLUE.

And the 4* Ascension Materials were all called RED.

They’re just saying: “Hey, it’s confusing that some of the BLUE Ascension Materials are farmable, and others aren’t. They drop at very different rates. I have like 1000 Tall Boots, and hardly any Fine Gloves. That’s confusing. Let’s call the non-farmable ones RED, and we’ll give the old RED ones a new name, YELLOW.”

Changing the name of them has nothing to do with changing how frequently they drop.

They already drop as often as they do.

It’s just clarifying that the farmable and farmable ones ALREADY drop at radically different rates, but they’re referred to with the same name anyway.

[grzechol]

Actually both farmable and unfarmable 3* mats are 3* but unfarmable are much harder to get.

[JAWS_3D]

I think it’s worth clarifying, they’re clearly different. I like the 3, 4, and 5* classification proposed as it makes a lot more sense that way.

[TKristensen]

I got your point. Just dont think they will keep the drop % if you up a star on the items.

[DaveCozy]

I don’t really get why the level 7 (3* → 4* crafting items) or level 8 (3* → 4* battle items) need a gem cost.

Atlantis Rises now provides every player with the opportunity to get all the dragon bones and nuggets they want. Even if it takes titan parts into consideration as ingredients, the rare ones can be acquired through patient harpooning since titans are a daily fight for the alliances, and there’s a chance that all you’ll get is a dragon bone instead of a titan heart. This makes level 7 a risky expense, I would rather save every last gem I have for a 10 pull as at least the heroes and troops from the non-basic summon portal aren’t farmable.

Level 8 should not cost gems. No one in their right mind will use this level. These same items can be crafted at a forge for no gem cost, and you get the guaranteed one you want rather than a random drop. Also it makes no sense why we can’t transmute epic items into other epic items; I have no need for so many high level HP potions for e.g. when I get by with the lower level potions (can bring more, and you don’t overheal HP). Dragon Attacks however I can find a use for them against tough bosses or for dealing more damage to titans, I’d like to have the chance to transmute those epic items I don’t need into ones I do need.

Level 9 is the only one that makes sense to have a gem cost imo, even though I say that gritting my teeth. I get it, these items are unfarmable, although I would then argue that a chainmail shirt shouldn’t have the same rarity as a hidden blade. But I digress.

Still I have issues with level 9. The amount of gems (150) and food is fairly high. The duration that it takes (7 days) to complete is also ridiculous. I’d prefer at least if the cost of gems were lowered. Even if the duration stayed the same and if that meant sacrificing the amount of alkashards gained, that’d be worth it for me.

Level 10 isn’t worth it at all unless you count the amount of alkashards gained vs level 9. No reason to give up a 4* material for any amount of gems. The chances you get something you didn’t need are still too high even despite the fact that you don’t get the same item used as an ingredient back. Even spenders would be very upset at getting their 10th damascus blade when what they wanted was a 6th telescope, and it cost them 250 gems to get something they didn’t need.