February 2022 : Winter Family's Balance Update - Follow up!

While, I can’t say of long back… but of late, @Petri does reply to many comments. You may want to check his recent posts. I have also seen him reply regularly… and also acknowledge / like certain comments.

Lets give credit where due = It motivates people… It’s a collaboration between, both players & SG…

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I appreciated them giving their follow up to the nerfs which had caused so much upset. They have made a clear attempt to improve their communication recently and that is great.

They refer to their data quite a lot in this recent post. I’d personally find it very helpful to be given the actual figures. I believe it would make for a more convincing argument for nerfs. They talk about high win rates for the winter family and also c-krampus compared with BK. I’d love to know what the figures were and at what point a hero is considered ‘concerning’. I think a lot of people on this forum are very analytical and they would win more people over with concrete data.

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Once upon a time SG shared this …

It would be nice to at least have this type of info regarding the Christmas family

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It really would be. My suspicion is that those metrics may be a lot more ‘complex’ than they were back then. I’m guessing here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ludwig (for example) has a higher win rate on defence than c-Krampus did. (I obviously can’t be sure of that). The reason he isn’t as problematic to the game as a whole will simply be that he isn’t as common. They would need to be careful how they present that data, as some might be up in arms, but I still think it would be really interesting to see.

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This is sg’s attempt to pull wool over our eyes

Good effort to explain part 1 of the update, with in depth explanation of why ckrampus had to be nerfed.

They failed to provide in depth explanation of the other parts:

  • how did they calculate that players money and resources poured into ckrampus was only worth 1 reset token and a few flasks

  • why did director zuri etc needed to be buffed

In fact they didnt address these points at all.

Often what is left unsaid is the true cruz of the matter.

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The only thing I got from this was, we made heroes so strong that no one is going to want any of our other new toys, so let’s nerf them so that all of these new heroes coming out will be appealing. Honestly, the reason behind this are ridiculous because now, the same old heroes that have dominated the game are still at the top

Elizabeth
Frigg
Morel
Bera
MN
GM

And I have them all, but I recognize the issues and welcome change/balance, but do NOT lie to me about your reasoning. Guin is a perfect example of them not caring about the meta considering she was the top tank for THREE YEARS! No one could touch her.

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I’m sorry but I have to say something

:warning:Incoming Rant :warning:

I have been a beta tester for nearly 3.5 years (~40 months)

So I’ve seen a lot, and while y’all may think we’re to blame, trust me, we’re not.

Who’s the one getting paid to make sure this :poop: is balanced?

Oh yeah, SG

Who’s the one donating their time, and patience - to not only test each and every hero + content - but then write up detailed feedback regarding each and every one separately?

Oh yeah, beta testers.

We tried to tell them, back when the power creep was ramping up - both here and in beta - that it was too fast, that they needed to slow down. Did they? No.

They are the ones releasing OP heroes for profit, not us.

They are the ones with incentive (via $$), not us.

They are the ones in control, not us.

So please, do NOT be placing any blame on any testers. If you’d been playing, and beta testing, as long as some of us, I don’t think you’d criticize the lack of effort put forth. Gets a lil more than exhausting spending several additional hours each week writing feedback, then have 90% of what you put out be pointless, as SG had already decided what will and won’t be changed (but isn’t up front about it from the start)

Like, how hard is it just to say: “we can budge a little here, but this part of the special isn’t up for negotiation”

…would save us all a lot of time and heartache…

You think they listen…

I was there when every beta tester joined in to tell em how screwed up Alchemy Lab v1 was, and did they do anything about it? No. So when it flopped, and they had to redo everything, were we also to blame? I think that was around the time I stopped writing such detailed feedback every release, as I put my heart and soul into trying to change things for the better, and time after time, it fell on deaf ears… One can only take so much.

So after X amount of beta testings - with OP heroes getting released like Ludwig, Ruby, hell even before that with Morel, hell lol even going back to Frigg, you start to wonder like… is this on purpose? What’s the point in balancing this :poop: when it’s clear this is what they want? I mean, one after another?.. They wanted those heroes as valuable as possible Every pay-wall hero is meant to be OP now. I learned that during the first round of Telly/Vela nerfs. HOTM were meant to be sub-par, while the rest behind such low odds needed several OP heroes to draw in the $$. That wasn’t my choice though… And I don’t approve.

…But that’s what SG has proven to want, and did so again with C. Krampus, as they knew it would work; 4 turn taunt was unheard of, and I’m sure to them, was non-negotiable [at the time]. As that’s what was gonna draw in the $$, that and Pengi (+ the direct upgrade to every other Winter 5* Hero via costume). They just underestimated the availability, via EHT and better [shared] odds, compared to most other portals… Balance had little to do with it.

This game lost it’s balance a long time ago

Plz don’t blame beta testers for that tho, as we have tried. But we also have better things to do than beat a dead horse… At this point, it’s a losing battle.

Not to mention, every additional mechanic meant to favor more monetization… such as now selling maxed heroes via tomes, mats, and aethers directly. Used to take months to max a 5*, even with money. Now, you can do it all within a week as long as you spend - you guessed it - $$… Tell me, why would we want any of that?!

This is all SG

Or else why on earth have they not touched heroes that are just as prevalent defensively, such as Xnolphod, Ludwig, hell even Pengi, hmm? If it’s truly a balance issue… Why haven’t they gone back and buffed heroes that for most, haven’t been used in years. Why did heroes like Zuri, and Milena, get buffed while others were much more deserving? (Lol and in the same breath as the Krampus nerf, as if that alone wasn’t reason enough to be salty :sweat_smile:) If it isn’t about money, and it’s truly about balance… then, please tell me:

Where is the balance?!?!

FWIW

I do think it’s good we’re seeing new blood in beta [again]. Beta has a tendency of burning the idealism out of you, and as soon as you become disillusioned with the game in some way (which most do), you quit giving a :poop: and only dedicate the little time you want to it, rather than feel the need to comment on every single hero, and every single mechanic [thread], every single week. (Give it a year or two, and then trust me, you’ll get there…)

Therefore, end up ignoring like 85% of the new heroes cuz that’s basically all that’s released lol, and no one’s got time to test, and give feedback, about 20 5* every two weeks, for several goddamn years lol we’re not robots. Beta testers are amongst some of the most knowledgeable and/or active players in the game, and therefore, know it well enough to give valuable feedback (if it would actually be considered), but that doesn’t mean it’s our whole life lol. It’s volunteer work (and we wouldn’t be doing it at all if we didn’t get something out of it too - but it’s not our job)

So really, in a perfect world, beta should have newcomers every 6 months to a year. Just to “refresh” and ensure there’s always someone around to give things a once over. Fresh eyes never hurt. Wouldn’t be surprised if there are many dead accounts in beta, that haven’t commented on anything in maybe a year or longer … so yeah, perfect time for spring cleaning. :sunglasses:

/endrant

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That’s a long write up & shows the player / beta tester spirit about this game = you like / care about this game, to express all of that.

While I understand commercial interest / priorities, I also don’t see SG as saints. At the same time, I also understand that having everything right at once is also not possible…
But
Am feeling let down by disregard for all that mentioned feedback with examples.

Thanks for sharing !

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Well, since you brought it up: in his thread about the february update he made exactly 2 posts and that includes the starting post. In a thread with more than 1300 comments where he is the OP asking the players directly for feedback that’s next to nothing. I’d say that’s not very communicative at all.

at this point, I would be astounded if any players still blame beta testers for any of this. it’s been documented and made clear many times that beta is now often ignored entirely (that is, many changes are made in the live game without going through beta).

also why any interest I had in joining beta evaporated a long time ago…

kudos to beta testers who pour a lot of time and heart into beta!

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Very well written @RandaPanduh. We told them not to release costumes for event hero’s when we first got kilhare, lepus costumes for testing, entire beta feedback was against this costume release. Many testers left because their feedback was not considered. Currently there are power creep hero’s behind the paywall. Most testers are quiet because they cannot change SG’s decisions.

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The only question I have to beta testers is: why do you still do it? I mean, they clearly aren’t listening to any feedback. Is it just to see what is coming down the pipeline? Is there any two-way conversations going on or do you all give feedback and have to wait until release to see what they listened to (nothing usually)?

It is not always the case.

Sometimes they listen to Beta testers:

  • Iris received a buff when released
  • Season 5 hero families are nerfed. Some weaker S5 heroes are buffed in the previous Beta.
  • Khonshu an upcoming OP S5 hero is nerfed.
    etc…

Lot of bugs are catched in Beta. (10 reported just last week about Season 5)

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I tend to be overly loquacious when I feel passionately about something lol :sweat_smile:. But we’ve got some truly great, dedicated players in beta that deserve a lot of love for all the work they’ve put in over the years! If not for the simple fact that they’re doing it for free, all because they love this game. They’re people, while SG is a business out for profit. & Idk, in my world, people are the ones that should get the benefit of the doubt, not the corporations.

Ya know, one would hope, but I occasionally see some anger directed at us rather than the real culprits, so just to be safe, gotta put on my ‘rant-y’ hat every so often to provide some perspective from the other side :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I mean, everyone’s got a reason, if they have decided not to provide feedback on something. In the end, SG are the ones responsible for ensuring the product is sound, not us. They’re also the ones responsible for adding more testers if the current amounts aren’t sufficient. Literally no fault should fall on the testers that volunteer; we choose the amount of time and effort we wanna put forth… that was true from the start.

Like, do you blame the volunteer worker, serving you soup, when the soup kitchen serves soup for the, idk, zillionth time?!

Mwah :kissing_heart: (btw, you did right by not joining :sweat_smile::rofl:)

This! 100%

(And thank you, as always :heart:)

Most quit giving feedback regarding any non-S1 5* costume after they decided to ignore our warnings about how screwed up double selling is. Wouldn’t be surprised if that’s why most keep away from those threads, or gave up feedback altogether.

(Cuz idk if anyone in beta wanted that :poop:)

Well, I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I joined to take part and make a difference - back when I still had this shining idealism about the game (ahh, the young…). For the first, idk, two years I participated in almost everything. Now, the only reason I’m still around is cuz, well, idk, I haven’t taken the necessary steps to leave, and they haven’t kicked me out yet lol. That, and I still play the game. I joined beta so long ago, so I guess, idk, habit?

However, if they removed me, I honestly wouldn’t be upset lol but they haven’t. So every so often, I’ll give my 2¢ regarding something, but nowadays, I don’t feel any pressure to participate in most :poop: whatsoever. I learned that what they’ll budge on is a mystery, and I’ve got better things to do than to try to decrypt it. They will occasionally listen - I’ll give em that - but I think for me, it’s too late to mean anything… As most times, they ignore the things that truly matter most (costumes, AL, HA, SE, etc).

Although, they do release this “sheet” at the end of each beta build, basically copy and pasting what was shared throughout the build by players, to prove they’re “listening”. Lol so they read our feedback… but it almost makes it worse, when certain things majority agree on get ignored anyway lol. Like, you all read it, but still decided…:

“nahh, we like our idea better”

(…beta in a sentence :joy:)

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thank you @RandaPanduh @Dessertrose @PlayForFun for giving - not only an insight into what’s being tested in beta - but more importantly, how beta actually works :slight_smile: (and also for fighting the good fight re giving feedback on what would work for players and the game…)

it’s a labor of love, I very much appreciate it, and I know many others do (I remember the outcries before re: SG, listen to beta players dang it!)

Three cheers to beta testers :slight_smile:

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First of all, i want to thank the Devs for their detailed explanation to the concerns given from the players. However, i find it curious, to say the least, that replies arent allowed, which is why i started this thread.

One issue i have a problem with is the fact that the devs claim that the Winter family was overpowered. Imo, this is up to interpretation and implementaion of counter attack. As they stated about family bonuses, the right family can DESTROY that Winter family. But by ommission, i interpret their statements as a lack of attention to yearly family bonuses, which would yield a lower win %.

I find the sympathies in their statements about Buddy, Carol, and Frosty pointless. You recognize that your punishing the entire Winter family, appreciate the sentiment from the players and will monitor the “metrics”, yet u have done ZERO for S1 heros. I find your sympathy a smoke screen for greed.

I will end my gripes saying this: im happy to support the devs, im happy to support my fellow players. When you make a mistake, i appreciate your post owning it. I dont appreciate no way to rebuke your statements nor give another point of view.

The other day… It occurred to me that a Nerf to Christmas peeps means a buff to skadi, and they gave skadi away for the price of 20 dupes… So… They giveth and taketh away.

I think when they say overpowered they mean too prevalent in defense, stifling disparity and thus income. Much like GTV defenses back in the day (although that was much more stifling).

I sat my pengi for that exact reason. I don’t want to add to the prevalence.

We already have a thread for this discussion: February 2022 : Winter Family's Balance Update - Follow up!

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