Classes and the defense meta

You’re on the right track, but I think you’re overestimating the benefit of Santa and Kunchen’s sturdiness in the face of their slow mana.

Here’s the exact numbers (I have a “Garanwyn’s private version” of @RedPython’s excellent analysis spreadsheet to which I’ve added the tiles-to-kill data and @Kerridoc’s intuitively very useful Sonya index).

Delilah is, like Ares, very dependent on her supporting cast for her utility as a tank. Her primary jobs are to keep snipers alive long enough to fire, and to act as a tile soak to prevent ghosting.

Delilah
  • 5.2 tile average kill from a 3-stack, so she’ll take a 3-match and live
  • The Fighter’s rez being “likely with high mana” is strongest on early boards, when most of the damage she’s taking is tile damage. She’s scary as a 5+20 fighter for this reason–she can take the hardest hit you can throw, then pop back up and heal everyone and minion up.
  • Don’t forget that those minions also act as a running DOT chewing away at the offense every turn. It’s not huge, but it stings.

Kunchen is also a supporting cast kinda tank. He’s super durable, but his slow mana means that the offense will get to fire specials on all but the worst boards. This makes him relatively less desirable.

He’s actually most useful against yellow titans, where flasks overcome his mana speed, and his effects are huge. Basically, bring 2 slots of mana pots, 0 slots of health pots, and leave Wilbur at home.

Kunchen
  • 6.7 tile kill, 7+ with emblems. That’s kinda scary.
  • You’re right about him being RP-proof. See @Kerridoc’s comment for how to work Kunchen over with a Wilbur team though. Perhaps the most interesting threat countered by his resistance is Athena.
  • Slow mana means he can’t affect the fight directly until many tiles in. His biggest benefit early is he’s sturdy enough to prevent ghosting for a long time.
  • Super vulnerable on average boards to Jackal stacks
  • Super vulnerable to the yellow mana cutters like Onatel, Leonidas, Chao, Grettel early on, but cleric talent reduces this vulnerabiity somewhat. Bring 2, though, and he probably never fires.
  • Once he fires his special, it’s probably game over for the offense–not the least of which because if he’s lived that long, the offense has had a terrible board and the defense has all kinds of specials ready or already fired.

Santa is also a supporting-cast tank. Which makes the 3-turn-only debuffs really unfortunate. He’s super durable, but his slow mana means that the offense will get to fire specials on all but the worst boards. This makes him relatively less desirable.

Santa
  • 6.9 tile kill, 7+ with emblems. That’s kinda scary.
  • His special only does 118 damage to an average target. It’s basically an AOE slash attack.
  • He’s slow mana, so while his special is very unpleasant to get hit with, there’s every chance that countering offensive heroes will be charged on even marginal boards
  • Blue has a high concentration of heroes who counter Santa (Kiril overwrites everything with a heal thrown in, Magni overwrites the defense down, Athena and Isarnia counter with a more-than-offsetting defense down of their own)
  • His effects only last for 3 turns; it is relatively likely that no defensive special will fire in that window. This is very unfortunate. The -attack is, therefore, the really useful debuff
  • Monk’s talent at least resists mana slows (but not mana cuts)

Personally, I prefer Delilah by a lot. She’ll live through a lot of boards against a 3-stack, she’s got that super-frustrating rez, and when she fires, there’s every chance that the rest of the defense will live long enough to use their specials.

Santa and Kunchen will live a long time and prevent ghosting–so they will very much frustrate slow-mana attackers. But average or faster attackers should all be charged on even very iffy boards before Kunchen or Santa fire.

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What is best flanks for Delilah in tank position?

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Queen of Hearts and Victor

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If not having QoH, who is next?

Then Zeline or Gravemaker

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Welcome to the forum! If you’re interested in specific team-building advice, I’d encourage you to start a thread in the #gameplay-help-tactics section of the forum and post pictures of your roster.

That way, people will be able to see what heroes you have and make detailed recommendations about who works well together.

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Queen of Hearts sadly isn’t as good a flank as her stats and effect want to make you believe.

After a prolonged offline period I am normally hovering between 1600 and 1680 cups with Zeline and Gravemaker flanking Delilah, with Queen of Hearts I usually end up with 1580ish.

She is awesome in offense, but was a disappointment in def compared to the other options.

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So as I take a look at heros you recomend. Conclusion is to put someone who lower the attack, rise the defence, or focus attacks on himself like QoH.

Best option for Ares is to flank him by good snipers. In that way of thinking, best option for Delilah is flanking her by support heros, am I right?

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for Ares

I would put heroes that could land a solid punch when empowered as Zeline, Evelyn or Drake Fong while

for Delilah the best would be to support her enough to let her build a massive wall of minions or to let her dealy the attacker’s damage to let one strong hero (as Isarnia) to turn the tides of the fight :slight_smile:

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In your opinion would Santa or delilah be a better tank given a large pool of options to surround?
I have both maxed and leveling the talents on both as well…

I don’t have either, but Santa gives me more problems that D does. I would go as far to say that in mid to upper diamond a Delilah tank is pretty easy fodder. At least she is for me, and I suspect its true for most since we have built teams to take down the hardest yellow tank there is.

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IMHO Santa is harder to deal with.

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This. Exactly why it puzzles me to see so many of them (so many refers to more than I would expect).

Case was made for Delilah by @Garanwyn above and it is compelling and yet I LIKE facing her. My team is strongest against Holy heroes which probably clouds my judgement. At the top end, the attackers’ benches allow for tailoring to go against ANY tank and perhaps Delilah actually is good statistically (I will NEVER get into a stats arguement w/him, I will lose like Derric v Azlar!).
I had hoped Aegir would be the one…ummm, next. Santa looks good although such a short duration for a slow mana hero…Kunchen feels to me like a possible winner, better tank ability with defense resist (to standard pulverizers). He’ll probably fire and the enemy could be in trouble if they haven’t already hurt you badly. Yes, more meat shield than GM but also, stops ghosting and has a powerful special (he won’t be healing a healthy team, no wasted healing).
I KNOW Santa gives me problems but haven’t faced any properly leveled Kunchens at tank yet .

With frida out now she seems like she might make a good tank too?

Average mana
Descent decence and health
Resistance to attack debuff
Paladin 25% boost to defence.

I feel like if she fires twice before dying the other team is in trouble…

If you had to choose between Frida and Alice on defense…fast v average, defense down v drop attack … rouge vs paladin, both nice tank talents.

Frida seems to scream out for a double blue on defense, Magni becomes unkillable, the two of them flanking … Kunchen of course :grin:

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The new generation’s HOTM have one great perk:
casting their special increases the likeability to fire again and not like old generation tanks who decrease foe’s attack (Horghhall, Richard) but they increase their own weak element’s defense with an undispellable buff.

But Frida doesn’t seems to be an impressive tank, she only affects blue’s damage and blue’s green defense other than the solid damage she deals with dispel annexed.

Her attack reduction’s perk doesn’t help her to stay in the tank’s spot as most of the damage she would take would be from tiles and that she would take just one or two special skills in that position, if any.

Probably Thorne would be a better tank than her after V20.

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Who the f… is this Meta everyone speaking about?

Dunno anything about her and my defense works fine though.

:wink:

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There are a lot of hardcore average and fast mana blue hitters out there, which makes life hard for a Santa tank. If your team doesn’t have them, or if you like to run shallow stacks, you’re going to hate Santa though. He’s too beefy not to want to chew him up with hard-hitting tiles.

My prolongation color in most fights is purple, with Proteus. That makes slow mana tanks have a pretty rough time of things.

My anti-Santa stack is Grimm,Triton, Kiril, Proteus, Rigard. Unless I get crap across both purple and blue, I never lose to Santa, even at 4/80. And even if he does fire, Kiril can completely overwrite his debuffs.

With Kunchen, the ease of drawing G. Jackal as a 4* just makes him iffy. If Kunchen ever starts to become a nuisance as a tank, people will draw hard on Teltoc. The cost is a lot lower than for the 5* debuffers like G. Panther (Delilah, Guin). G. Falcon likewise makes green tanks super iffy.

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I totally agree with you.
I’m thinking Santa tank is the way to go for my tank at this point. I used to run delilah but switched to Santa once maxed
Im going to be using my free talent reset to give to frida from king Arthur once I finish maxing frida.

Let me know what you think?

First pic is my current defence team second one is what i was thinking with frida…

I have tried multiple times switching Delilah and drake for each other and my cups are always 50 to 100 higher with delilah in the yellow spot on my current defence team. Seems illogical to me but i can’t deny the cups!

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I would jeep Delilah and Alaise flanks: with Alberich you could do better by stalking your attackers than going for coordinated attacks.