How bad is the situation in USA? [Ref: Protests & Riots 2020]

[mrslam23]

I’m a white middle-aged man from Europe, specifically the Netherlands and from a young age have always been in love with US culture the moment I got exposed. I loved and still love US television series, junkfood, cars, NBA basketball, music, films, skyscrapers, stand-up comedy. I have had three holidays in the States, fell in love with Chicago, but also the beautiful landscapes, nature and National Parks. We often watch reruns of late night shows to keep up with politics. Although I found Americans on average not always so knowledgeable about the bigger world around them, most of them were very friendly, interested and endowed with a lovely can-do spirit and pride in their country and culture. In my country there are a lot of pre-conceived negative ideas about the US and I’ve always defended you. I also still feel that we owe the US a debt for the freedom we have after World War II

So I’m sad and worried for the US situation for multiple reasons:

• I think your president is stealing your democracy and has all the makings of a dictator seeking absolute power. How did this man ever got elected in the first place is beyond us.
• I think your gun policies and culture are insane, and can’t for the life of me figure out why only thought and prayers are offered after a school shooting. Look at how quickly gun law reform happened in NZ after the Christchurch shootings.
• A two party political system breeds division just by the nature of it, you are either the one or the other. Multiparty political systems are difficult and messy, but I think it’s more democratic, and everybody can get their voice heard, even the more extreme viewpoints.
• In every country and culture there is racism and bigotry (we also have it) I think it stems from the simple evolutionary biological trait of xenophobia that is present in all people. If somebody is too different from yourself and your group, then they could be potentially dangerous to your group and should be feared. It’s only when we recognize and acknowledge this irrational fear that we can overcome this. It’s ludicrous that anyone should claim superiority on basis of race, but in the end it’s this fear and wanting to hold on to privilege (power, money, luxury) that drives racism I think. It’s horrible and shocking to see the murder of a black man by that police officer, and the wrath of the people is justified. We even had #BlackLivesMatter rallies in our country, so it’s spilling over to the rest of the world.

I sincerely hope your president will fail in his handling of this and gets removed. I also hope that your country gets a chance to heal itself once again. I wish you the very best from the bottom of my heart and hope for a movement of change that really leads to better times ahead.

[TGW]

I’ve watched a fair amount of the live coverage footage of many of the protests. I’ve seen everything from protests that were entirely peaceful, to ones where both the police and protestors were violently lashing out. My own city has been mostly peaceful - a little bit of vandalism, but it’s almost always the same small group doing most of the vandalizing, and they’re usually less than 5% of the entire crowd. They are ruining the message. They are mostly only hurting innocent victims in the community who had nothing to do with the issues at hand. Even if they choose to only target the police, rather than the innocent private business owners, remember that… when you burn a police car… who do you think has to pay to buy them a new one? Yep. That’s right. We do.

[TGW]

Thank you for the words of support. As for the points you bring up:

• Yes, I am mostly calling this a leadership failure. But in the issue of fairness, so as to not appear to be completely biased, it is a failure of both parties, as I don’t exactly see a bunch of people from either side jumping up to try to fix the situation. That makes them all, in my opinion, 0/2 when it comes to dealing with national emergencies thus far this year (0/3 if you include the now recession). So who then, do we look to, when the next potential crisis hits us? I suppose we’re just on our own here. Well, thanks for nothing, can I have my tax dollars back now? Oh that’s right, no refunds, no exchanges. Didn’t realize my own government operated under the same business model as a gacha game. Is it like, call the police for help, 1.3% chance they’ll show up and help you, 70% chance they’ll beat the crap out of you and give you a 3* season one hero as compensation?

I’m sorry, I am just trying to find some humor in what is a very unhumorous situation.

• Not going to delve into the gun policy. Already went down that rabbit hole until it was pointed out that it detracts from the issue at hand. And for that matter, that discussion doesn’t really belong here anyway, as Mr. Floyd was not killed by a firearm, and surprisingly, very few lethal firearms have been used in the recent protests (by either police or the protestors themselves). I believe that, all things considered, for the most part, both sides (police and protestors) have shown incredible restraint (with a few exceptions here and there).

• Yeah, never been a fan of the two party system myself. Problem is that third parties never gain enough traction to be viable. You’re either A, or you’re B. If you’re C… you just have to pick which one is least annoying you at any given time.

• Already spoken most of my peace on racism and bigotry. I know it’s mostly based on natural xenophobia. But for crying out loud, I grew up surrounded by people of all different races and cultures. I knew they were all different, not going to sit here and pretend like I’m racially colorblind. But I also had several white friends whose families and cultures were a lot different than my own. Oftentimes, I had more things in common with my black and Hispanic friends than I did with many of my white friends. I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that some white people are afraid - as in yes, literally afraid - of people from other cultures, believing them all to be “ruthless savages” (or insert whatever other blatantly ignorant term). That’s just absolutely ridiculous. I’ve gone to school with, worked alongside with, and lived with people from many other cultures. And at the end of the day, the only conclusion I can come to is: in spite of our minor cultural differences, when it comes to the kind of things that really matter in life, we’re all basically the same.

[voidstrike]

Houston had thousands march in downtown yesterday in peaceful demonstration that we are not satisfied with the status quo. A few hundred were arrested but for the most part there was only a united movement to make the voices of the oppressed be heard.

There are vigils scheduled through the remainder of the week. I pray this continues in the city and we can show that a change for justice doesn’t have need to continue being blood soaked. I’ll keep an update based on things I either see in person or witness through neighbors and local news.

[ep-5]

JGE I agree with you almost entirely, except for the part about being born with “hatred” in one’s heart.

This might not be rooted in hatred specifically, but there is a very common tendency to categorize people as “us” vs. “them” and to harbor mistrust/animosity/resentment towards the “other” group, both individually and collectively, for no valid reason other than innate differences. This can be seen whether the distinction is family, ethnicity, nationality, gender, political affiliation, religion, social class, educational level, police/military background, or many other characteristics. This is sad, but it is human nature, it doesn’t need to be taught to be people, and it takes work to overcome.

[ep-5]

Are you serious? Please think about this for a moment:

The original victim, George Floyd, was in no position to draw or use a gun when he was being brutalized by the officers responsible for his unfortunate death. Indeed, he had been handcuffed and was lying on the ground with a person’s knee resting on his neck. If citizens are not to have personal protective equipment (firearms, in this discussion) for their own defense, to whom shall they turn for protection? Mr. Floyd needed protection from the very individuals who should have made a priority of preserving his life, since he was under their control.

[EDIT: this is in response to a comment regarding guns]

[princess1]

I really don’t want to get into the gun debate but I feel the need to state a fact. The police in Canada are,of course, cautious any time they stop a vehicle, or approach a potential suspect. The biggest difference in the US is that the police, quite rightfully so, can expect the person may have a gun in the same situation, and naturally feel a heightened sense of fear.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with what happened with George Floyd and I’m certainly not condoning how the police acted.

I just wanted to point out that knowing someone may be carrying a gun will obviously put the police on higher alert.

[Olmor]

I don’t know much about the circumstances of death of that sad guy.

I’ve heard that similar situations happen from time to time. They are the trigger for riots like now, but this time covid seem to lead to even more extreme reactions.

The situation has become almost independent.

Do social issues or racial prejudices play a bigger role?

[JGE]

I agree with what you say to a point.
But it troubles me that not all people stand together to face off injustice etc.
The recent trigger for this activity and supporting activity around the world (we had peaceful demonstration in London today) was the murder of a black man under the knee of a police officer.
To see it and to hear it on TV was horrific.
But with out the peaceful protesting that currently goes on what would have happened… I would have given it a week and only a handful of people would probably still be talking about this poor man and his daughter and wife.
So I understand why they feel the need to take to the street. To demonstrate not to riot.
And I say that because of my background. Do any of you recall the police brutality of the LGBT community in San Francisco in the 1970s or Stonewall in New York? That sort of thing occurred throughout the world and the majority of the “straight” world stood by and did nothing.
Even today being badged as LGBT in Some countries In this world is punishable with imprisonment. Some religious countries will allow local law to put such people to death.
Even in recent times we’ll educated advanced countries tried to prevent gay marriage / civil partnership. So we have gay protests and gay pride and things get through …
But my point is if you don’t fight for what is right, nothing really changes
Just my 2 pennies worth

[nevarmaor]

I grew up in Toronto, a true melting pot of multiculturalism. From grade 3 to 12 my best friends were: an Indian born in New Delhi, a Jamaican, and a Korean. I am white, mainly Scottish. Even though this is a common story in Toronto, there is still rampant, casual racism here. I have no idea how many times I have told friends you can’t stereotype an entire race based on a few people who rub you wrong, or based on rumours and innuendo. It is so sad that we are not at the point where people are just people rather than black people or brown people or white people or yellow people.

I also find it sad that in Canada here we are starting to become more Americanized every year. No offense, because just about every American I have met is individually an amazing person and no different from most Canadians that I know.

[Leonidas1]

A friend of mine is a photojournalist currently covering the protests in Detroit with 2 other journalists. They were hit with pellets on their way back to their car Saturday night. They were told they’d be arrested on sight if they went back. I’m still trying to get an update from him:(

[Drob]

One of the worse consequences of the LA Riot’s and that horrible shoot out in LA with bank robbers with automatic weapons had that shoot out with cops with semiautomatic guns, then there was a push to militarize police departments, this was also cheap budget wise, because all this equipment was military surplus, ie already paid for by our military budget, one that was over reaction, two the equipment was cheap but the training would of cost a fortune, so these forces were given military equipment with no training, flash grenade is one example of a device police force don’t understand how to use them, one example is a case involving a infant called baby Bou Bou where the cops got the wrong address and invaded the wrong home New Low: Sheriff's Office Claims Infant at Fault for SWAT Team Blowing His Face Apart with Grenade - The Free Thought Project and an innocent baby was severely injured by not just a clerical error with the wrong address but also mis use of a flash bang, then if you read the article they blame the baby, police are a necessary evil but shouldn’t be a paramilitary force.

[Rook]

Yes, I absolutely agree with you on this.

My original thought on the LA riots (beginning to end) is they had a strange poster boy, yet the police who beat him were completely without excuse (as the camera showed); their acquittal torched off the riots…but I remember them through the lens of that time. There was no “peaceful protest”, there was looting and burning, and folks dragging Reginald Denny from his truck and nearly beating him to death just for being there. I lived in L.A. County at the time. You saw the sky lit up from my neighborhood when it happened.

Should the cops be held accountable for viciously beating a man in their custody? Absolutely. Should whole neighborhoods have gone on the rampage because of it? I’m sorry, no one will convince me that “looting” = justice.

[Drob]

Unfrontently it is a know issue that groups with ulterior motives that are infiltrating our police forces, weather it be aryan racist, or city gangs, we need to do a better job of vetting candidates, and do a rigorous psychology evaluation of them.
One example of a city gang that infiltrated the Cook county sheriff’s department was a woman gang member that became a correctional officer, she not only was a go between for the high ranking members, she brought in drugs, she was eventually caught because she abated an escape attempt. But there are tons more stories of racist groups infiltrating police forces, the part that makes me most mad is the so called good cops that do nothing because of the thin blue line code, and if they break it they end up like Serpico who had to go hide in Europe. This is a pandemic of human values.

[Drob]

Chicago had an officer that was highly decorated, because he closed 97 % of his cases, but it was because he used medieval torture to get false confessions, his name is Jon Burge, but no one cared because the people he framed were gang bangers, who in their mind was guilty of something anyways so who cares if he didn’t do it he most likely did something else so who cares, this is a travesty, that unfortunately still happens today maybe not in the open like Burge, Thomas Jefferson was quoted when coming up with the bill of rights, he would rather see 100 guilty men go free than have one innocent man imprisoned, and I totally agree, we have 10s of thousands inconsistent people in jail, not talking about the ones that have been given too harsh of sentence, but actually innocent, but once a prosecutor wins they almost never want to admit they were wrong even in the face of indisputable evidence to the contrary, then they use corercen by offering to vacate the sentence if they aggree to plea guilty or an Alfred plea

[DoctorStrange]

No one agrees with the looting or rioting but you keep playing Russian roulette and eventually you gonna catch the bullett. People are afraid to call the people that are supposed to protect them, afraid when they even see them out. Case after case of new DNA evidence proving people were sent to jail that were innocent. Men spending 40 years in prison under the most dangerous conditions being raped by other men. Robbed beaten, everyday you have been taught to defend yourself remobed from you as you sit in a room full of steel and concrete. People are just now seeing what minorities have been dealing with for decades so dont tell me that they dontnhave reason to wanna tear ■■■■ up. Let me plant drugs in your house get you 20 years and see how yoj feel when you get home about the police. You can comment on the “looters” which is a very small amount of people yet wanna overlook the families and lives of men and women that have been destroyed for decades.

Then they release these people back into the real world and they have no idea how to function in normal society anymore, they can’t get jobs anywhere cause they are now a convicted felon. You have no idea why these people are angry and it shows in your speech but don’t take the looting of a few to ignore the cries of the many. they should have burned every police station in the county after that insane verdict in the Rodney king case and I would have been there with a stick and marshmallows.

[TGW]

I’ll go ahead and shut down the gun issue from this entire debate. Not that it’s not somewhat relevant to the way police may typically react when approaching an unknown subject, it was a complete non issue in this instance.

George Floyd was not armed, or even suspected of being armed, at the time of his murder. He had already been searched, handcuffed, and put into the back of the police car BEFORE the police officer pulled him back out again to choke him to death.

When they first charged the officer with 3rd degree manslaughter, I said, NO, that’s not enough. 3rd degree is an “oopsie, wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, total accident.” There was absolutely NOTHING accidental in that video. That officer was CLEARLY trying to harm Mr. Floyd. Which means minimal 2nd degree murder.

Others had called for it to be 1st degree. Initially I said, “no, first degree requires premeditation; why would a police officer consciously decide ahead of time that he was going to murder a random suspect?” Until I found out that the officer and Mr. Floyd already knew each other and had worked with each other long before this incident occurred. Now what are the odds of that? It’s one thing to “accidentally over-strangle (???)” a guy you’ve never met. But the fact that these two already knew each other beforehand? Sounds to me like somebody acting on a longtime held grudge and abusing his authority to commit first degree murder.

Of course, that’s for the courts and all to decide… and even with all the evidence in the world, the way the system is set up, it’s hard to ever convict a police officer of any wrongdoing.

Not saying that it’s okay to go out and attack random police officers, or loot, or light stuff on fire, because it’s never okay to take your frustrations out on innocent people. Never.

But if anyone in government or whatever expects people to just calmly sit back and not even react to these injustices, when they keep happening over… and over… and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again?