Hey, this happens to me all the time during a battle: isarnia (5* blue def debuffer+dmg) and zimkitha (5* red att buff+dmg) are fully loaded and ready to use their respective skill. Now, which one should be used first for best results? Has anybody calculated that yet?
I don’t have Zim, but I usually fire isarnia before the other hitters because she will lower defense before any attack…
There was a post here (with lots if crazy numbers) that indicated that less defense has a bigger impact then more attack.
In case you want to take a look at the post with “lots of crazy numbers,” it’s from the thread quoted below.
I run the same setup, and usually it’s a no-brainer.
If Isarnia already has the attack buff from Zim (because Zim charges faster), fire Isarnia first.
If Isarnia has blindness or attack debuff - fire Zim first.
If enemies already have defence debuffs on them (from previous Isarnia special), then Zim first, Isarnia second.
The only way you need to turn on the brain is when there are no buffs/debuffs on the field.
If you fire Zim first, you’ll get an unbuffed Zim attack (714 * 155% = 1107 total attack), then buffed Isarnia attack (797 * 125% * 235% = 2341 total attack).
If you fire Isarnia first, you’ll get unbuffed Isarnia attack (797 * 235% = 1872 total attack), then Zim attack on debuffed defence (714 * 155% / 56% = 1976 total attack).
To sum up the damage, we need to raise attack to power 1.35.
So, if you fire Zim first, you’ll get 1107^1.35 + 2341^1.35 = 48.2 K points
If you fire Isarnia first, you get 1872 ^ 1.35 + 1976 ^ 1.35 = 54.3K points.
Ergo, Isarnia first, then Zim. You’ll deal 12.6% more damage when compared to Zim first, Isarnia second.
Thanks for the clear approach to answering this question. It can be used to answer any similar pairing, such as Buddy/Evelyn or Arthur/Athena or Panther/Tibertus.
Thanks @zephyr1 I didn’t remember where i had seen it to link it! (And there are more crazy numbers around!! I get dizzy just looking at them!!)
Aren’t those pairings a tad different than attack buff + defense debuff, because Elemental defense debuff also makes the hit from specials from the debuffed color become elemental instead of neutral?
Many thanks Damirius, exactly what I’ve been looking for. Thanks all.
You’re welcome. Athena/Arthur choice can actually be tricky.
Since Athena debuff is variable, ideally you’d want to lower the defence by throwing non-blue tiles at the target (titan usually) and only then activate Arthur and then series of blue tiles, by exploding the blue diamond.
This way you can achieve the maximum possible damage.
So, if you plan to activate Arthur/Athena and then hit Titan with blue tiles, you won’t get maximum possible damage.
If you plan to activate Arthur/Athena and then hit Titan with non-blue tiles, you’re wasting a turn of elemental debuff for nothing.
That’s why it’s quite tricky
Isarnia definitely then zim
Different in kind, but the analytic framework is the same.
Athena is tricky because of her variable buff (which, BTW, is why pairing Athena with a minion-caster like Delilah is particularly good). Let’s say Grimm/Arthur to simplify.
I know the same basic analysis applies, I just thought you also would have to take into account the “strong” damage from a special made elemental. I would guess in most situations that would make the elemental debuff being first beneficial, particularly when talking about two defense debuffers, one elemental and one not.
Attack buff does not multiply special damage, it is just added to the special attack percentage. So the buffed Isarnia attack is (797 * (235% + 25%) = 2072 total) and the difference between the attack orders is even greater.
I didn’t know that. ■■■■, that really makes attack buffs nearly useless for special skills, and defense debuffs should always be used first.
This is inaccurate, I believe. This is in the thread on damage calculation:
That calculation applies only to tile damage. I did a quick test on 1-20-4, using Magni and Boldtusk.
Magni, attack: 793, special: 420%.
Firing the special on lesser fire elementals, 3 attacks - no buffs.
Damage: 823, 863, 830 - average: 839
Attack buff from boldtusk, +48%
Damage: 889, 947, 917 - average: 918
The buffed attack equals to about 460% attack, quite close to the expected 468% (420% + 48%).
If the attack buff would have multiplied the special attack damage, the damage should have been over 1200.
Interesting. That’s actually supposed to be the equation for tiles and specials. Looks like it’s wrong though. Thanks for the quick test and the correction! I really appreciate it.