The funny thing is that you agreed with me while trying to disagree.
My point is that the average damage difference done to a Titan is too big if you compare a team with Wu Kong with a team without him (regardless of titan color). This can also apply to most of the events, as it is pointed out here in this thread, and verified in the top scorers.
Sure, his efficacy in duels is debatable (which is fine - means he is closer to balance in this regard). However, having a single hero being such a no-brainer choice in, at least, 50% of the meaningful interactions (titans + special events) while being useful in the other 50% (attacks and alliance wars), is a clear and boring unbalance that needs to be addressed.
I disagree. I donāt think it depends on where you are in the game. I will give the simplest example as possible:
Two different persons, letās call them A and B, with same gaming time and same team power. āAā has Wu Kong. āBā has not. We can even assume they are in the same Alliance.
āAā will deal consistently more damage to Titans when compared to āBā, thus, having a better score - which ultimately leads to better spoils. Therefore, āBā cannot compete with āAā.
Same logic can be applied to events at some extent.
While not 100% true (heās cost me some points on a cold streak and put me lower on the list than before), I do agree in principal with your comments, but again, thatās not what I am debating nor do I care to outlay my pre/post Wu scoring comments. I am debating that he is only āneededā if you want to fight tougher opponents than your team should be able to and that is a dice roll at best. Thatās why I provided my āneedā example in AW where I am punching above my weight class for my last hit.
Youāre overlooking several other important parameters.
Titan loot tiers and ascension item rolls
You need to obtain loot tier IX or better for the third ascension item roll.
A 6* titan, only the best scoring player (A+) gets the extra ascension item roll. Thatās 1 out of 30. Insignificant, could be done without a Wu
A 7* titan, the 6 best scoring players (A, A+) get the extra ascension item roll. Thatās 6 out of 30. Significant Wu-effect
A 8* titan, everyone that did at least 3,3% of damage to the titan (B, A, A+) get the extra ascension item roll. You donāt need a Wu for that really.
No play, no score
If you have a Wu or not, unless youāre making the best use of all your alliance energy, youāre never going to end up in the A/A+ ranks. Despite having a Wu, I do end up with a B-score sometimes, simply because RL got in the way of me using all my alliance energy.
Levelling gets the A+ spot.
As an experience Wu-titankiller, I often manage to get a A-score. And with my alliance having 7* titans on farm, that is a Good Thing ā¢. However, I also see that the A+ score more often than not is held by the player that levelled. A well planned lvl means you get to spend 4 world energy in a blink, and with or without a Wu that will often make you top dog.
TL;DR: Wuās advantage to obtain more ascension item rolls from titans is there, but itās also quite situational.
Hi Bertus, thanks for the loot figures. They will be very useful for me
Seems like we both agree that having Wu in the team gives you a significantly higher average damage output to Titans. Butā¦
Of course it could be done without Wu. But I am talking about the average here. Having Wu increases your average damage done to Titans significantly, period. That alone increase your odds of finishing A+.
Cāmon guys, it is not that hard. In order to understand balance in such a game, you need to compare identical situations. Same person, same life, same game time, same variables - but with Wu and without Wu in the team. Take two players that makes constantly best use of their alliance energy, the Wu holder will have constantly better damage output (regardless of titan strenght/color).
By the way, RL also happens to those who donāt have WU in the team.
So you think it is fine balance-wise that a non-Wu team gets a chance to have a better score than a Wu team only when the first get a level-up?
By the way, teams with Wu also level up.
Let me rephrase. Wu advantageās to obtain more ascension item rolls is there, thus giving faster progression to those who have Wu in the team.
Based on your reasoning, what is quite situational is the chance of a non-Wu getting a better score than a Wu team (needs to rely on leveling or RL situations from the Wu player).
Lucky it is relatively easily to get a 4* yellow hero since there are only five 4* yellow. Unlike HotM which can be difficult to get or impossible if you just joined the game.
However, Wu Kong is OP. So just like the popular Ramming Pulverizer, there should be a purple Gamblerās Stance and a third color Gamblerās Stance. This would make Gamblerās Stance similar to 42% healing, a major 4* special skill.
Personally I think the red 4* Heroes ( heavy on aggression) would work with Gamblerās Stance. So yellow, purple ( strong against yellow) and red Gamblerās Stance.
Wuās advantage is there, but itās situational. Itās only really there in certain titan loot tiers, itās only maximum one extra ascension item roll, and even in those tiers Wu-less players can and still will outperform Wu players because of levelling and perseverance. Besides, ascension items donāt come merely from titans. Mythic visions, monster/hero chests, quests, AW victory.
The advantage is there, in certain situations (7* titan defeat loot) itās significant, but overall itās just not big enough to be unbalanced.
Reverse the question: my Wu was my first 4*. Iāve been SLAYING titans with him from the get go. Iāve always been a top dog titan hitter in my alliances. And yet Iām short quite a few ascension items for the 5*'s that I have, I can max 3 of them currently, and thatās it. Sincerely and honestly: the advantage appears a lot larger than it actually is.
To me even āWu playersā will level other heroes with perseverance and in the end Wu Kong will still be top tier for titans encounters as it is a titanās universal hero (good against every color) as Athena and (a bit less) Ares but far more common as it isnāt HOTM or event related.
This make up for the fairness of the great effect: itās āavaiableā to all and it isnāt a 5 hero hungry for the rarest ascension items, everyone can get it with TCās eipc training and some luck.
We can say the same things for every hero: better heroes gives better results, its not Wuās fault to be so good. Said so, I hope itāll remain unique as the only gambling monkey, enven if similar effects will be added in the future I think that Gamblerās Stance should be a Wu Kongās only special.
Good point: Wuās availability. I donāt have just one Wu. I have three. Heās not that rare, but thatās a small comfort if youāre still waiting for the first one I guess.
Situational (adjective):relating to or dependent on a set of circumstances or state of affairs.
No, the advantage is not situational. You said yourself, the advantage is there. What is situational is the opposite: a Wu-less team out-performing a Wu team, since it requires a level-up situation or a ābetter perseveranceā compared to the Wu player.
Irrelevant to the discussion, since Wu players also have access to these.
Well, being imbalanced or not it is an opinion and I respect yours. But to me, the fact that everyone who has Wu uses him in the titan team (REGARDLESS OF TITAN COLOR), and events (with exception of the yellow-reflecting ones) is a clear imbalance and should be addressed by developers (assuming they care about making a balanced game).
Titans? Yes.
Raids? No.
Raid defense? Hell no.
Events? Yesā¦ most of the time.
Heās not hard to get, and those who have him understand how silly the ones who donāt have him sound when they describe him.
Let me tell you what you see sometimesā¦ you have the armor debuff on the titan, you have Boldtuskās buff up, Wu has gamblerās stance active, itās a green titan and you brought 3 redsā¦ you get a line of red tiles lined up right into the titanās weak spotā¦ Miss, Miss, Missā¦ oops, just cost yourself a lot of damage.
Or let me tell you another situationā¦ you bring your team to the titan, things get rolling, Wu buff is upā¦ you get a 3 tile combo into the weak spot of a 9 starā¦ and he hits Wu for 700ā¦ next turn you line another 3 tile combo into the weak spot. Titan hits Wu again for 700. Wu is dead. You now have a minute left with no Wu buff.
Those who have him and use him for anything over a 7 star know how both of those goā¦
Wu is totally fun and totally unpredictable.
It makes a real difference (most of the times on titans, and sometimes on events. I personally prefer donāt take him in raids), but itās a difference you have to know how to use it.
Meritocracy, if i have to word it. Those who understand immediately his potential and has trained using him gained an advantage.
So we have to punish those people to be better then others?
If i have to choose, rather then cut fun and nerf Wu kong, i add other similar heroes.
I knew of WK potential early on so I developed him first and bring him in all raids.
I wouldnāt just say āNOā to him as per raiding. I have a high win rate at platinum. But that would be because I created a team around him and a ton of experience using him.
Still donāt think he is OP though.
Ah, weāre going to piece this apart word by word and sift through semantics?
Situational is situational. Unless your alliance is regularly fighting 7titans, your Wu isnāt going to make you gain significantly more unfarmable ascension items on titans. I have a Wu. Iāve been fighting 6, 7 and 8 titans. Iāve seen the titans bring in ascension items. I can estimate that the amount of -extra- unfarmable ascension items my Wu has given me in nearly half a year of playing wonāt boil down to more than 3 or so. Thatās just the times I had a third ascension item roll for ending up A/A+ that gave me an unfarmable ascension tiem.
Other sources of unfarmable ascension items are essential to the discussion, because their inflow from the other sources is far greater than what you receive merely from titans, let alone from the situational advantage (3 instead of 2 poor odd rolls) Wu offers.
I think we can agree that Wu is FOTM for titan fighting. But FOTM does not equal overpowered, like you claim. It does mean that heās the most powerful on holy against titans. But is that alone a wrong thing? One hero will have that position for each color. Nerf the FOTM and another just takes it place. Calling a hero unbalanced simply because FOTM is a road that leads to nowhere. The developers know that.
Naturally the developers care about making a balanced game, as part of their overall objective to make a fun game that makes the company money. You should not merely assume that, or are you aiming below the belt? The fact alone that there is a FOTM will not suffice to the devs to bring out the nerfbat. In particularly not if the FOTM is fun, not risk free, and limited in PvP terms - PvP makes the lilā boys cry for nerfs cos they donāt want to lose. The only reason the devs would touch a powerful but not overpowered FOTM is to shake up the pillows. Looking in my crystal ball, Wuās only ever future ānerfā may well turn out to be 6* heroes - now thatās shaking up the pillows. At least that would probably suffice to dethrone him as FOTM holy hero vs. titans.
Iāve made my point here. It seems that everyone agree that having Wu in the team gives a way better damage output on titans, to the point that he gets a spot in the team over 5* heroes, regardless of Titan color, and he is also part of top teams in events (with one only exception). This is a fact and not opinion.
If you think that is balanced or imbalanced, it is an opinion, and one can only respect that.
Personally, I think that in a game with dozens and dozens of heroes, having a single strategy that is so dominant over other strategies is a bad design which needs to be addressed.
hero hungry for the rarest ascension items, everyone can get it with TCās eipc training and some luck.