The funny thing is that you agreed with me while trying to disagree.
My point is that the average damage difference done to a Titan is too big if you compare a team with Wu Kong with a team without him (regardless of titan color). This can also apply to most of the events, as it is pointed out here in this thread, and verified in the top scorers.
Sure, his efficacy in duels is debatable (which is fine - means he is closer to balance in this regard). However, having a single hero being such a no-brainer choice in, at least, 50% of the meaningful interactions (titans + special events) while being useful in the other 50% (attacks and alliance wars), is a clear and boring unbalance that needs to be addressed.
While not 100% true (he’s cost me some points on a cold streak and put me lower on the list than before), I do agree in principal with your comments, but again, that’s not what I am debating nor do I care to outlay my pre/post Wu scoring comments. I am debating that he is only ‘needed’ if you want to fight tougher opponents than your team should be able to and that is a dice roll at best. That’s why I provided my ‘need’ example in AW where I am punching above my weight class for my last hit.
You’re overlooking several other important parameters.
Titan loot tiers and ascension item rolls
You need to obtain loot tier IX or better for the third ascension item roll.
A 6* titan, only the best scoring player (A+) gets the extra ascension item roll. That’s 1 out of 30. Insignificant, could be done without a Wu
A 7* titan, the 6 best scoring players (A, A+) get the extra ascension item roll. That’s 6 out of 30. Significant Wu-effect
A 8* titan, everyone that did at least 3,3% of damage to the titan (B, A, A+) get the extra ascension item roll. You don’t need a Wu for that really.
No play, no score
If you have a Wu or not, unless you’re making the best use of all your alliance energy, you’re never going to end up in the A/A+ ranks. Despite having a Wu, I do end up with a B-score sometimes, simply because RL got in the way of me using all my alliance energy.
Levelling gets the A+ spot.
As an experience Wu-titankiller, I often manage to get a A-score. And with my alliance having 7* titans on farm, that is a Good Thing ™. However, I also see that the A+ score more often than not is held by the player that levelled. A well planned lvl means you get to spend 4 world energy in a blink, and with or without a Wu that will often make you top dog.
TL;DR: Wu’s advantage to obtain more ascension item rolls from titans is there, but it’s also quite situational.
Hi Bertus, thanks for the loot figures. They will be very useful for me
Seems like we both agree that having Wu in the team gives you a significantly higher average damage output to Titans. But…
Of course it could be done without Wu. But I am talking about the average here. Having Wu increases your average damage done to Titans significantly, period. That alone increase your odds of finishing A+.
C’mon guys, it is not that hard. In order to understand balance in such a game, you need to compare identical situations. Same person, same life, same game time, same variables - but with Wu and without Wu in the team. Take two players that makes constantly best use of their alliance energy, the Wu holder will have constantly better damage output (regardless of titan strenght/color).
By the way, RL also happens to those who don’t have WU in the team.
So you think it is fine balance-wise that a non-Wu team gets a chance to have a better score than a Wu team only when the first get a level-up?
By the way, teams with Wu also level up.
Let me rephrase. Wu advantage’s to obtain more ascension item rolls is there, thus giving faster progression to those who have Wu in the team.
Based on your reasoning, what is quite situational is the chance of a non-Wu getting a better score than a Wu team (needs to rely on leveling or RL situations from the Wu player).
Lucky it is relatively easily to get a 4* yellow hero since there are only five 4* yellow. Unlike HotM which can be difficult to get or impossible if you just joined the game.
However, Wu Kong is OP. So just like the popular Ramming Pulverizer, there should be a purple Gambler’s Stance and a third color Gambler’s Stance. This would make Gambler’s Stance similar to 42% healing, a major 4* special skill.
Personally I think the red 4* Heroes ( heavy on aggression) would work with Gambler’s Stance. So yellow, purple ( strong against yellow) and red Gambler’s Stance.
Wu’s advantage is there, but it’s situational. It’s only really there in certain titan loot tiers, it’s only maximum one extra ascension item roll, and even in those tiers Wu-less players can and still will outperform Wu players because of levelling and perseverance. Besides, ascension items don’t come merely from titans. Mythic visions, monster/hero chests, quests, AW victory.
The advantage is there, in certain situations (7* titan defeat loot) it’s significant, but overall it’s just not big enough to be unbalanced.
Reverse the question: my Wu was my first 4*. I’ve been SLAYING titans with him from the get go. I’ve always been a top dog titan hitter in my alliances. And yet I’m short quite a few ascension items for the 5*'s that I have, I can max 3 of them currently, and that’s it. Sincerely and honestly: the advantage appears a lot larger than it actually is.
To me even “Wu players” will level other heroes with perseverance and in the end Wu Kong will still be top tier for titans encounters as it is a titan’s universal hero (good against every color) as Athena and (a bit less) Ares but far more common as it isn’t HOTM or event related.
This make up for the fairness of the great effect: it’s “avaiable” to all and it isn’t a 5 hero hungry for the rarest ascension items, everyone can get it with TC’s eipc training and some luck.
We can say the same things for every hero: better heroes gives better results, its not Wu’s fault to be so good. Said so, I hope it’ll remain unique as the only gambling monkey, enven if similar effects will be added in the future I think that Gambler’s Stance should be a Wu Kong’s only special.
Situational (adjective):relating to or dependent on a set of circumstances or state of affairs.
No, the advantage is not situational. You said yourself, the advantage is there. What is situational is the opposite: a Wu-less team out-performing a Wu team, since it requires a level-up situation or a “better perseverance” compared to the Wu player.
Irrelevant to the discussion, since Wu players also have access to these.
Well, being imbalanced or not it is an opinion and I respect yours. But to me, the fact that everyone who has Wu uses him in the titan team (REGARDLESS OF TITAN COLOR), and events (with exception of the yellow-reflecting ones) is a clear imbalance and should be addressed by developers (assuming they care about making a balanced game).
Raid defense? Hell no.
Events? Yes… most of the time.
He’s not hard to get, and those who have him understand how silly the ones who don’t have him sound when they describe him.
Let me tell you what you see sometimes… you have the armor debuff on the titan, you have Boldtusk’s buff up, Wu has gambler’s stance active, it’s a green titan and you brought 3 reds… you get a line of red tiles lined up right into the titan’s weak spot… Miss, Miss, Miss… oops, just cost yourself a lot of damage.
Or let me tell you another situation… you bring your team to the titan, things get rolling, Wu buff is up… you get a 3 tile combo into the weak spot of a 9 star… and he hits Wu for 700… next turn you line another 3 tile combo into the weak spot. Titan hits Wu again for 700. Wu is dead. You now have a minute left with no Wu buff.
Those who have him and use him for anything over a 7 star know how both of those go…
Wu is totally fun and totally unpredictable.
It makes a real difference (most of the times on titans, and sometimes on events. I personally prefer don’t take him in raids), but it’s a difference you have to know how to use it.
Meritocracy, if i have to word it. Those who understand immediately his potential and has trained using him gained an advantage.
So we have to punish those people to be better then others?
If i have to choose, rather then cut fun and nerf Wu kong, i add other similar heroes.
I knew of WK potential early on so I developed him first and bring him in all raids.
I wouldn’t just say “NO” to him as per raiding. I have a high win rate at platinum. But that would be because I created a team around him and a ton of experience using him.
Still don’t think he is OP though.
Ah, we’re going to piece this apart word by word and sift through semantics?
Situational is situational. Unless your alliance is regularly fighting 7titans, your Wu isn’t going to make you gain significantly more unfarmable ascension items on titans. I have a Wu. I’ve been fighting 6, 7 and 8 titans. I’ve seen the titans bring in ascension items. I can estimate that the amount of -extra- unfarmable ascension items my Wu has given me in nearly half a year of playing won’t boil down to more than 3 or so. That’s just the times I had a third ascension item roll for ending up A/A+ that gave me an unfarmable ascension tiem.
Other sources of unfarmable ascension items are essential to the discussion, because their inflow from the other sources is far greater than what you receive merely from titans, let alone from the situational advantage (3 instead of 2 poor odd rolls) Wu offers.
I think we can agree that Wu is FOTM for titan fighting. But FOTM does not equal overpowered, like you claim. It does mean that he’s the most powerful on holy against titans. But is that alone a wrong thing? One hero will have that position for each color. Nerf the FOTM and another just takes it place. Calling a hero unbalanced simply because FOTM is a road that leads to nowhere. The developers know that.
Naturally the developers care about making a balanced game, as part of their overall objective to make a fun game that makes the company money. You should not merely assume that, or are you aiming below the belt? The fact alone that there is a FOTM will not suffice to the devs to bring out the nerfbat. In particularly not if the FOTM is fun, not risk free, and limited in PvP terms - PvP makes the lil’ boys cry for nerfs cos they don’t want to lose. The only reason the devs would touch a powerful but not overpowered FOTM is to shake up the pillows. Looking in my crystal ball, Wu’s only ever future “nerf” may well turn out to be 6* heroes - now that’s shaking up the pillows. At least that would probably suffice to dethrone him as FOTM holy hero vs. titans.
I’ve made my point here. It seems that everyone agree that having Wu in the team gives a way better damage output on titans, to the point that he gets a spot in the team over 5* heroes, regardless of Titan color, and he is also part of top teams in events (with one only exception). This is a fact and not opinion.
If you think that is balanced or imbalanced, it is an opinion, and one can only respect that.
Personally, I think that in a game with dozens and dozens of heroes, having a single strategy that is so dominant over other strategies is a bad design which needs to be addressed.