Currently , i’m on 9 star titan … getting 20 to 30 K hit with Tarlak and boldtusk … i will try wu with boldtusk and check it out

I would think the big advantage of Tarlak is you can use him before specials without worrying that they will miss.

I hit 9☆ with just Wu and I do 30~40k !

Don’t have BT lol

Wait… why not? Is there math showing that stacking atk buff + wukong is not worth it? I’m not sure what else you would want to bring on a titan team that could give higher damage. Attack Buff + Def Debuff + Elemental Def Debuff + Wukong seems to be the recipe (assuming you don’t have issues with survivability).

You are correct, they are wrong. It’s always worth it to stack buffs and debuffs.

Bustin out the math for the Wu Kong vs Tarlak Debate.

First we will start with some assumptions.

Wu Kong gives +185% attack and a 32% chance to miss - let’s assume this is the true percentage and that there is no funny business going on (my experience is that this percentage is spot on). Wu Kong will also stack with other buffers. So Wu + Bold Tusk will yield + 233%

Tarlak gives +100% and always hits (and stacks up to 160% with other buffers) Tarlak Plus Bold Tusk gives +148%.

Stacking With Ares gives +239% and +154% respectively.

So the math to compute the true attack power is this:

If your hero has a base attack power (AP) of 900 (like my melendor):

With Wu By himself - new AP = 900 * (1+1.85) = 2,565

With Tarlak By himself - new AP = 900 * (1+1.00) = 1,800

Wu + BoldTusk AP = 900 *(1+ 1.85 + 0.48 ) = 2,997

Wu + Ares AP = 900 *(1+ 1.85 +0.54) = 3,051

Tarlak + BoldTusk AP = 900 *(1+ 1.00+0.48) = 2,232

Tarlak + Ares AP = 900 *(1+ 1.00+0.48 ) = 2,286

So this is our baseline - but we want to include Wu’s miss percentage and then determine which combo is better.

I wrote some code and simulated a bunch of trials.

I assumed 100 tile attacks, factored in Wu’s Hit Percentage and came up with a value for the attack of each combo. Since Wu’s will vary I ran this trial 10,000 times to get a mean value.

Then I compared the constant value for attacks with tarlak as ratio to the mean for attacks with Wu.

The results were surprising.

With WuKong by himself vs Tarlak By himself Wu Kong does 96.7% of the damage that Tarlak will do.

But when you start stacking - this percentage grows.

Wu+BoldTusk does only 91.31% of the damage of Tarlak + BoldTusk

Wu+Ares does only 90.76% of the damage of Tarlak + Ares

So you lose about 3.3% of potential damage with just the two heros.

This loss drops to almost 10% if you stack with a buffer at 54%!

This actually makes sense - since you are changing the numerator and denominator of a ratio by the same amount. Even though you add a constant to both, the ratio starts to diverge the bigger this offset becomes.

Even though I simulated this with trials and counting, closed form solutions are derivable from just the raw percentages of the heros.

The Ratio of Wu’s attack to Tarlaks is simply:

2.85 * 0.68 / 2 = 96.7%

The Ratio of Wu’s + Bold attack to Tarlak + Bold is simply:

(2.85+0.48) * 0.68 / (2 +0.48)= 91.31%

The Ratio of Wu’s + Ares attack to Tarlak + Ares is simply:

(2.85+0.54) * 0.68 / (2 +0.54)= 90.76%

Of course Wu has a variance (a probability of either more or less damage than the mean).

Since we are dealing with Normal distributions (using the Ares Wu combo)

68% of the time your attack will be within 7% of the mean.

95% of the time your attack will be within 14% of the mean.

99% of the time your attack will be within 21% of the mean.

So about ~10% of the time you use Wu and Ares you can get higher scores than with Tarlak and Ares.

But 90% of the time it will be lower, and potentially quite a bit lower.

Enough fun for now! Enjoy.

So my answer is Tarlak over Wu - especially when stacking!

This applies for all situations. Raids, Titans, Wars etc. (not to mention Tarlak is less squishy and has more hp)

Beautiful work thrashina!

Agree, great breakdown of the two. I’m glad I stumbled across this, I have been using Wu and just pulled Tarlak in the Atlantis summon yesterday and had the same question.

So your conclusion is that Tarlak over Wu, but another thing to consider is that Tarlak’s special is 4 turns and Wu’s is 5 turns. During a titan battle I usually get 2 specials off using Wu (when not using mana potions), but there are a few rounds when the special isn’t on. I’d assume you’d need to have Tarlak’s special go off 2-3 times at a minimum to compare to Wu’s. So, you’d have to determine the probability of the special being activated for a 4 round vs. 5 round special during the titan battle. Maybe you can add that to your simulation? I think that could play into making this a closer comparison.

i dont’ have tarlak. But wilbur, BT, wukong, elena and scarlett VS Green Titan, is pretty violent for sure.

wu always in my team. never without the crazy monkey.

Thanks howling. I’ll think how to incorporate the number of turns. Btw wu kong special is good for 5 turns. Tarlak for 4.

Wilbur + Boltusk = stable output damage

Wilbur + Tarlk = insane output damage

Wu = its gamble , depend on how you please your lady luck , you need hourglass + tornado to minimize Wu cons

Well this is a tricky one. - Let’s start the comparison:

Wu 707 attack 620 Def 992 HP → +185% Attack with -32% Accuracy for 5 turns.

Ran 768 attack 762 Def 1126 HP → +195% Attack with -35% Accuracy for 5 turns. AND 265% Dam to target, and +46% un-dispellable Dark Def for Yellow Heros.

But Ranvir’s Attack special only applies when you have less hp than your target.

It seems if you have a really strong team - he might not be that valuable for raids. But if say he is your strongest hero, he could be great to attack stronger teams.

35% is a very high miss rate.

He will be better than Wu against titans - since they ALWAYS have more HP than your guy - and if they don’t - it won’t matter, it is as good as dead anyway.

Statistically the +185 Miss -32% is basically the same as +195% miss 35%. (ends up being about a 1.1% damage advantage on average with Ranvir).

I don’t have him yet, but I don’t like that his special only is active under catch up conditions. He is quite a bit less squishy but only has 134 more HP - probably can’t be one shot easily. His attack is just a nice bonus.

A pure 5 Star Wu would be too powerful. So I think they did a nice job with him.

If I ran an all yellow team - I’d use Ranvir. Otherwise I’ll stick with Wu. Still Ranvir for Titans…

These are just my first thoughts and purely my opinion.

Hi @thrashina, it looks like you’re doing your analysis without factoring in the exponential from the damage equation. I think that may shift some of the conclusions a bit, since the damage boost is inside the exponential, while the miss percentage happens on the final result.

Hi @Garanwyn ranwyn

What exponential are you referring to? If I’m not using the correct formulas I’d live to learn what I’m missing…

The best information we currently have on how damage is calculated is this thread:

There’s evidence that SG may have made some changes to raid damage since the equation was worked out, but it’s the best model I’m aware of.

Thanks - I hadn’t seen that before!

You’re welcome! I really appreciate the fact that you’re bringing mathematical rigor to the Wu vs Tarlak discussion. Hopefully, this helps.