Wu Kong needs a new haircut (NERF WK?)

General Discussion
61

Point of order: taken out of context, the words you quote from my post make it seem as if I was advocating for other heroes to be able to do what Wu does. I certainly was not, as you can see from the bit where I said:

To the list of unique heroes that includes WK and Guin I would add Alby. I’m not convinced we need more Guin-like tanks, I’m not convinced we need more revivers like Alby, and I’m not convinced we need alternatives to WK.

But I’m still not sure. Why is it a bad thing that there are some uniquely useful heroes without whom players will be disadvantaged in some parts of the game?

Edit: Second point of order:

Hmm. In the end, over the long term, using WK will increase your average Titan score, yes. I think the point the poster was making, however, was that in the short term, over individual Titans, using WK can harm your Titan scores because of the increased variance he brings. Plus, of course, he is fragile - his propensity to die early somewhat offsets the expected increase in Titan damage score. (Only somewhat, I think, though I’d be interested in any proper analysis anyone has done on this issue.)

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62

For how long you been typing all of this!
Seriously?

63

Considering the role of Wu I simply don’t think he should be that unique.

To put it differently, WK is a niche, but he’s also the single most necessary hero of the game. We whine about Guin, but WK is far beyond that. He’s a MUST have at 7-9 star titans for f2p guilds.

We were stuck at 7 stars, yet me and my wife obliterated everyones score even though we were pretty much middle of the pack in strength. Reason? People didn’t use Wu (people never read guides/boards or did the math). When they started to listen (our scores did make a very good point…) and more and more ppl add in WK we slammed past 8 star within two months.

WK is so good you even use him against yellow. In practice you have 4 spots to work with and WK. That can’t be as intended. But as I said, changing WK is a nightmare for balancing issues, so I am sure SG is very hesistant about this.

  1. WK is so good that even the lows are better than the lows a normal team has (keep in mind that even a straight up no frills damage team has a random board to work with). There will be anecdotes of terrible WK sessions (I had them), but they are extremely rare. I certainly score rather consistent with WK, and what I see around me in the guild this is not just me. It’s not more inconsistent than what other pull of.
  2. He’s fragile, but most of us are stuck at 7-9 titans and that’s where he usually survives the whole ordeal (indeed with some pots and a meteor at 9 star). Sure, 10-11 star will be different, but to get there you need to pass the 7-9 star phase. And that’s where WK is king.
64

I agree with all the points you make about Wu. I’m just not totally convinced that they mean a change is necessary. Why is it bad that there is one weird 4* monkey that you’ve got to use for Titans? It’s an interesting wrinkle, isn’t it?

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65

It’s not a huge problem for me… but like I said, we have 4 spots on our titan team, that can’t be what the designers had in mind :rofl:

66

Thank the gods, I did finally train a new WK - not long after my sad earlier posts to this thread, I think - and power levelled him. So I’m now in a position to dispute this:

This is certainly not my experience. WK has definitely improved my Titan scores overall - I sometimes top our alliance now, and often sit in the top 3 or 4. But he also sabotages me on some Titans - using him, I sometimes now find myself placing in the bottom half of scores on particular Titans, which never happened without him.

Am I any less consistent than others in my alliance? Probably not. But I think we all use Wu. (We kill some 10* Titans, mostly 9* and a rare 8* when we get sloppy.)

Was it the devs’ intention that WK should be vital for Titans? I doubt it. But does this mean it is bad that he is vital? I don’t know. I don’t think so.

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67

If everyone use WK, you might indeed see more variance among each other, the mechanics would definitely support that.

But the variance of WK seldom (like really, really, really remarkably rare^^) is so bad that he will put you under a non WK team, which was the contention. Indeed, in our (clearly weaker) guild the top 3 is never occupied by a non WK user (regardless of strength).

Is WK an issue? Naah. Titan hunting is not really interactive, WK is pretty much available for all (with 1 or better 2 TC20 you are bound to produce him unless the RNG gods really hate you). Even those who do not have WK will profit due to the better titans tackled.

That said, a second WK like hero would give a tad more flexibility (if only cosmetically^^).

Guin/GM are a lot more troublesome due to their limited availability and impact on the more interactive part of the game. And even that is just an issue that will be changed (if only by new heroes), hardly the end of the world.

68

That is definitely not my experience. My pre-Wu team consistently sat in the top 10 of our Wu-using alliance’s Titan places, but hardly ever in the top 5. My Wu team mostly sits in the top 5, is sometimes top, but regularly sinks into the bottom half. That’s Wu’s variance (and sometimes his fragility) burning me.

Well, yes - because Wu pumps up the variance, in an alliance with, say, a dozen or so Wu users we would expect that for each Titan at least one would manage a fabulous, Wu-enhanced score to top the table. I would also expect that at least one would get sabotaged by Wu for each Titan, and rack up a relatively low score.

All this aside, I can’t see much downside to introducing a second Wu-like hero. I don’t really see a need, but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it either way.

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69

@Grimzy, you may have outsmarted yourself on this one. :wink:

Obviously I know Wu is vital on Titans.
I don’t, under any circumstances, an apt replacement for Wu has been developed. Though I’d love to see a 5* variety with lower chance to miss and maybe a defense boost.

I have, however, seen people use him successfully and have lower score variance. Wu giveth and Wu denyeth.
Recent example, someone scored 60k on one hit, then 35k, and 5k on the last because (I SWEAR IT) Titans target him. Meanwhile, someone without Wu is going 25k, 35k, 30k. lower? Yes. Higher average? Also yes. Still considered successful? Affirmative.

My point is, when people get a low score on a particular hit with Wu, it is more deflating than a predictable hit. So I am not talking about Math. I am talking about how people feel. Regardless of what the math says, some folks prefer predictability. We are all at the mercy of the boards, of course.

I guess the error in my phrasing would be “better average score,” when I was really maintaining that some prefer “a more consistent average score.”

“False” Are you Dwight Shrute? LOL
Yeah I figured I’d get laughed at for that one but it was an innocent question. On the surface he seems really cool but noone I know has come back and said “wow, Gregorion makes all of the difference on those Kraken”

70

@Grimzy I agree wholeheartedly.

I would like a new spin on Wu. Someone just as vital, but maybe a different color and slightly different abilities. Maybe one with the same boost to damage, but instead of a chance to miss, it is a -DEF (for blue allies) and higher def/HP for the hero.

Maybe make it a girl. and make her crazy but cute. Call her “Karma” and her special “Chaoswind”

71

I think you are making a very basic error here:

60+35+5= 100k => 33.33k average.
25+35+30= 90k => 30K average.

In you eample the Wu user gets a whopping 10% extra damage on average.

And I never had 5k score in a year. Indeed I had one sub 10 last week when someone called me.

It’s math, a team with Wu will average higher than one without. You can jump up and down, but this is basic math. And no, Wu will not skew people anywhere near as consistent under a normal average, once again the math on Wu is quite solid against that notion. If you end up lower it will be nothing as extreme as you just posted.

To ram this one home: If Wu dies in the first second (largely user error!) versus let’s say a Chao that lives you miss 1 special ability, that perhaps fires 3 times. The tiles will still count as much as he was alive. A 5k score due to Wu dying wouldn’t be a much higher score if there was Chao instead of Wu… that’s simply not how it works, especially since Tiles and not pecial attacks are decisive. A team where Wu dies will pretty much function as a normal team with one guy less. The four other heroes still do their thing, just as they would do in a normal team. Wu gives a higher score, not a lower baseline (again, basic math and how the game works).

72

Substituting Wu involves sacrificing a more effective hitter 80% of the time (because Wu is the wrong colour 80% of the time). Plus, he is fragile relative to the 5* hero one omits in his favour, and may die. Finally, of course, his special does not guarantee improved damage. Over a large sample size we know that Wu will help us, but over a single battle there is a very good chance he will hurt our score.

I don’t think my Wu team has ever scored less than 5,000 (maybe once, when I got my colours wrong), but it regularly scores between 5,000 and 10,000, which never, ever happened with my Wu-free team. Sometimes I get more than one of those lousy battle scores against a particular Titan, and sometimes Wu fails to deliver the 40-50,000 point battles that can compensate.

That’s when I look at my B grade for that particular Titan, sigh wistfully, and wait for the next one to arrive.

Wu will improve a player’s Titan damage over the long term. For individual Titans, though, he will frequently harm performance relative to a Wu-less team.

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73

This is what I was trying to say but apparently my words weren’t good enough.

74

I say DO NOT nerf him. As much as I’m enjoying tge fruits of him hitting hard. He is almost causing as much trouble.

75

Since I dont have one……………I hope I will get one soon and it would be really sad to nerf such a unique hero.

And it would be really sad to see him no more in raid defense teams. :smile: ( especially in the center )

76

You don’t get the (extremely rare) 5k score because Wu dies but because he lives.

77

Consider the bonus:

2.85*0.65= 1,825 => During wu’s buff on average you will get 82,5% higher score. That’s almost double, which is beyond any other easy available hero. And for kickers, straight attack and crit bonuses also go through this multiplier, making the gap even bigger

To get a lower score, you would need about 65% misses (and that’s without attack bonusses). (2,85*0,35=1). So getting almost double the standard misses gets you a normal score. To get lower you need to miss even more.

Impossible? No. But during a Titan run with 3-6 turns it would be really rare to see you score less than a comparable team (strength/skill) without Wu. The odds are massively in the favor of the Wu player.

In other words, Wu is a certain boost of your score. Both on average (long run) as on the typical titan. Will you see bad rolls? Once in a while, but the math shows those are pretty rare… and getting a couple of those runs in a row? Very rare.

This is why Wu is so incredibly good and a straight up boost. It’s also why there’s no real replacement for Wu, statistically he’s a certain winner.

And yep, survivability becomes important on the higher levels, yet I seldom let him die on a 9er (and I use mini-baby potions), if that happens it’s when the clock runs down and I go for broke. And yes, I also had him die early due to user error/bad luck. But again, usually he’s fine.

10-11 star titans? Guess I yield to those with experience as I never saw that beast. But for the vast majority of players that’s not an issue. Indeed even 7 stars are a big effort for many kingdoms (though I bet the forum readers are a subset of the stronger kingdoms).

Again, nerfing him is not really an option unless they are willing to change the Meta. I certainly hope they don’t. So let’s accept him as a given and add an alternative of a different color (or a 5 star resilient hero with a similar skill).

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78

You have failed to account for:

  1. The sacrifice in tile attack from using Wu instead of a punchier hero.
  2. The sacrifice in special from omitting an alternative hero.
  3. The sacrifice in overal damage from having one of your heroes be the incorrect colour. (80% of the time.)
  4. The increased likelihood of Wu dying (compared to stronger, alternative heroes) - especially when Wu is the ‘correct’ colour, and vulnerable to purple.

You have also notably failed even to attempt to quantify the likelihood of Wu actively harming your score, ceteris paribus, which actively harms your case.

79

Wu Kong is the only way to be able close the gap a little between the poor and rich people. No nerf please!

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80

Yes, your drawbacks are certainly real. They just don’t come anywhere near to canceling out the net effect of Wu.

  1. How much damage can you expect per tile? Joon comes to mind, but Joon is a LOT rarer than Wu. Compare Wu with average hitters and the gain is small. Wu is not atrocious in per tile damage, especially not as a 4 star yellow hero.
  2. Specials are damage wise not that important (even Lianna is a 1400 hit) and are clearly more than compensated by the Wu boost of the specials of the others.
  3. You have some loss, but you also get an extra color to work with. Board variance is something that is extra important for (near) mono-colors (which is imho the real reason for the variance, math indicates it’s unlikely to be Wu himself). Wu boosts five heroes, of which 4 are the correct color. His own less than optimal color is clearly overcompensated by the extra damage.
  4. Again, compared with a Chao the difference is minimal. Sure, Also, how big is this.problem for most of us? The stats (scores) suggest that even on 9 star titans Wu is much, much more of a boon than a problem. This is a very good indicator that Wu’s survivability is not a real issue. And yes, I would love him to be more sturdy, but I also want a pony for Christmas.
  5. Wu harming a score due to misses? I already gave the odds needed for that to work out. If the standard is 35% misses, it would need several instances of over 65% misses to even go under average damage. And if you have just one standard 82%+ damage run you need truly atrocious runs to nullify that, repeated beyond 65% (as in really, really bad runs) misses would be neccesary… The odds for that to happen regularly are mathematically remote. The likelihood for Wu to harm your score repeatedly and thus affecting your average negatively? It’s going to be rare.

Quick estimate of 4 runs leading under average score is 6%. In 5 runs 2.6, In 6 runs 1% => I certainly did not really work it out with a table, and did not put in variables as Wu dying fast or Joons special, so my numbers are definitely biased optimistic, but even if those numbers are 2 times worse (which they probably aren’t), it would mean that you would see Wu hurting your effort once in 10 Titans (If you need 5 runs on average, you would see it every 40 titans). I don’t need to point out that just over several titans it very, very quickly becomes mathematically ridiculous to assume Wu dents your average negatively. A week of runs (35) crashes my calculator if I try to work out the odds of that being under average :rofl:

And to drive that one home, 90% of your titans you would score above average. That’s massive.

Note that this is not just on paper, but simply mirrored in what we are seeing. Wu simply does seldom, really, really seldom hurt your bottom line. Bad runs happen (but would a different hero make it a good run???), but it pales by the average boost Wu gives.

Of course, it’s a bit rotten of me to argue on math and established scores instead of gut feeling. Wu simply is as good as I point out and the drawbacks you mention of Wu simply are not that important. The numbers (both on paper as in what we all see in real life)are extremely clear on this. Replacing Wu with another hero leads to lower averages.

I’m not sure why we are even arguing the effectiveness of Wu. It’s established beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I sincerely doubt Wu gets a significant nerf. His impact is so big that the whole meta hinges on his existence. I think it would (pulling this out of thin air) mean a fall back of 1-2 titan levels for the majority of guilds. I don’t think that SG would think that would be a good idea (people will be livid, it rather demotivating).

It’s why I suggest to keep it as a given and expand the range of heroes a little bit (A purple Wu like 4 star TC20 hero and a 5 star HOTM for the top kingdoms). It gives a bit more flexibility in the teams without changing the meta. Wu is very easy to get (two TC20’s should yield a Wu in a few months unless the RNG gods truly hate you), an extra 4 star Wu like hero won’t lead to huge shifts.

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