Why (some) things need to be the way they are in E&P

Could alternatively be titled “A collection of the most unpopular opinions on the forum”. I guess I’m bored and I haven’t argued with anyone for a while? But I do believe all of the below.

  • Hero pull chances need to be low - probably just as low as they are now. Otherwise there would be a saturation of heroes in everyone’s roster. That leads to staleness and also removes the most challenging and satisfying aspect of the game - tuning your roster based on the limited heroes that you have. Hero academy could have higher rates though - maybe 10%

  • Availability of 4* mats needs to be low, for a similar reason to the above. However… I think there is probably a bit of wiggle room here to improve odds and releasing a slightly larger subsection of peoples’ rosters without dislodging anything else balance-wise

  • Emblemes, LBs needed to be done. I won’t say that they have been implemented in the best way possible, but ongoing ways of expanding the abilities/usages of existing heroes is required to prevent the game from becoming stale. I have played plenty of RPGs in my youth and once you hit the maximum level for a hero half the fun immediately went away as you knew that your hero could not longer grow no matter how many enemies you faced and how much exp you gained. In these types of games the saying “The journey is just as important as the destination” really does apply, and when the journey is over you just have the destination left.

  • Ninja tower - the only semi interesting PVE content in the game in my opinion. It has to be that hard, and the omni curses have to be that annoying, to get players involved and challenged beyond the normal PVE stuff. There could be more flexibility in flag usage however

  • All heroes can’t and shouldn’t be created equal. You need your Reubens (poor), Noors (average - yes she is average and useful, no she is not as bad Reuben/Perseus etc etc) and Beras (good) to help balance the game. Releasing all heroes at the same level would not result in the joy and excitement of pulling the “good” heroes, which would mean less interest in pulling and ultimately reduce the lifespan of the game. Salmon Loki I currently have no answer for however.

  • Tell and Vela absolutely had to be balanced - at least the first time. I am on the fence on the 2nd/3rd times. There were hard to beat but more importantly there was too much saturation which would have eventually led to staleness

  • Players who have their heroes nerfed do not “deserve” compensation. This is probably not a game thing but more about our society as a whole feeling more and more entitled. Compensation is deserved if a player suffers because of something that happens in the game. Getting your hero nerfed does not make you “suffer”, at worst it makes you play with heroes that are a bit worse than they were when they were OP or almost-OP. If you stop using them then you essentially lose your mats - which happens naturally anyway as your old heroes start to get decommisioned.

  • Hamgate had to happen. The ham couldn’t be taken back from those who bought it based in the advertised text, and to allow everyone access to purchase at the broken price would have had a negative impact on the game “economy” particularly in regards to FTP vs non FTP

  • Boards have to be random, other than preventing instant matches. Trying to place limits on the color distribution or placement would severely limit the variety of play you would see between raids, reducing the challenge and leading to staleness.

  • Niche heroes are great for the longevity of the game, requiring ongoing thought and participation in team configuration - combating staleness that would creep in if you could get away with using the same heroes ad naueseam

Now to make it clear I am not a SGG “fanboi”. Plenty of things I don’t like about the game - most of the PVE content, the quests that have not been updated in 3-4 years, the poor excuses that count for storylines, the poorly implemented alchemy lab system (desperately needs an “last recipe” option), the unresolved duplicate hero issue. But the stuff that is there has kept me around for 2.5 years, and many others for the same length of time or longer, which is a mighty feat for a mobile game. I think things just need to be looked at with a bit of a broader perspective, without automatically rationalising away everything that we don’t like as “because the devs are greedy and don’t care about players”. Greed is there, sure - as it should be. But it is balanced with the sustaining the game in the long run.


I like a challenge and was ready to have a robust discussion on all things E&P … :thinking:

Alas, I agree with most of what you wrote :sweat:.

Jury is still out :rofl::joy::wink:




Interesting read over a cup of coffee. Lol

Should stir up some dust.

By and large, I do agree with you on most of your points.

The only gripe I have with SGG is their lack of professionalism. Like you, I do play other games, RPG or otherwise, still.

This game is at the absolute bottom for:

  1. Graciousness in delivering Nerfs and other bad news. Delivery and implementation could be better, the 3rd nerf of T/V was mid-war. A few more hours wouldn’t have harmed any player or SGG’s intent to rebalance the game and arrest the flood of leavers.

  2. Civility in treating their customers, who keep their wallets lined. No other game company, in my experience, use such heavy handed language or tactics or delivery in achieving what they need/want to achieve.

  3. Promptness in attending to customer complaints or feedbacks. This is the absolute killer for customer retention. Even if the answer is going to be a flat “No” in the interests of “game economy”, man up and be honest. Customers need to know, then they can decide if they want to continue with the game (suck in etc etc and stop complaining cos it isn’t going to change) or decide otherwise.

  4. Consideration in implementing compensation for nerfs, bugs, etc etc. Why give the same compensation to ALL players when not ALL players have Tell/Vela? And then say that they need to rebalance the game. The indiscriminate compensation only serves to unbalance the game in general.

No matter how great a game is, no matter how casual a player is, The above 4 shortfalls will take away game enjoyment eventually; every player has their baseline. Once enjoyment dips into negative, the player is most likely to exit the game, whether hard core, casual or in between.

Yes, this game still can retain some players, like yourself. It should have enough life left, at least to May 2022, and perhaps beyond that, to S5, but it’s heyday is long gone, now eclipsed by games with newer formats, just as good graphics, just as good UI, but require less spending to get anywhere decent.

It will end up like another game, that I used to play and didn’t mind throwing money in to, until Zynga came along and killed it slowly but surely. Oh that game is still alive, limping along, still getting revenue but it’s definitely on the path to its tombstone.

Enjoy EP while it lasts


Sure they do - but lot of folks flop like this is FIFA at the first hint of change. Makes it hard to do anything but nothing.

There should be a standardized process by now — but as soon as there is one, folks will try to trigger it for even the most benign reasons or compulsion it’s too much / not enough.


In most games I’ve played with a hard tower mode, you can at least auto clear to where you finished the last time you did it. Feel like that is sorely missing, as it’s so time intensive to begin with. Let us auto clear to the spot we completed the last run, heck, save the curses for all i care…just give us an auto clear.

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What if you invested a lot of real money to get a specific hero because SGG released a broken hero?

You invested to get the hero as it is. If they nerf a hero they should compensate for each nerf based on how many pulls you did to get the hero.


I’m going to just say that now we have emblems and limit breakers 4* mats are no longer the bottle neck regulating power over time and therefore no longer need to be limited. Making them more available would both speed up the catch up of newer players and reduce one of the gripes of old whales (neither a group I belong to) and would actually increase the balance in my opinion.

This is my view and I am one of the many f/c2p players that have mats but no worthy heroes.

Hope this disagreement tickles your argument loving amygdala.


In case you have forgotten, I appreciate the effort you put into your posts @Homaclese

For me, I think this could be a popcorn thread. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


Removed text as it was uncalled for.

I appreciate your commitment to honesty as it is a quality I value in anyone.

Heroes need to be rare? NO!!! The availability of mats deals with this issue for the most part unless you are a whale. I did 10 Wildenhall pulls and got 7 Vollermorks, 1 gramps, 1 Macka and a Dawa. If they think that is an incentive to spend more money then they are totally delusional (I’m allowed to say that because I am crazy irl).


In relation to your third point, they try, and sometimes they get it right. For example, when there was a bug for the rewards for completing S3, SG’s Kira responded promptly in the thread created by @JekylandHyde. I was satisfied with SG’s communication, and the speed of resolution.

On the other hand, we have things like the Hero Academy, which took at least 500+(!) days to actually get released into the game. :unamused:

Also, a seemingly simple QoL improvement such as adding a stage counter literally took years to get implementated. :unamused:

Note: I’m trying to focus my attention on enjoying what I still can in the game. Thus this may be my second and last post in this thread.


I’m sorry about your 10-pull @sft1965 :frowning:

Even though we know the odds, no one would enjoy getting 9x 3*, and just one S4 4*.

Hoping that your upcoming summons are much better. :four_leaf_clover::four_leaf_clover::four_leaf_clover::four_leaf_clover:


I totally agree. SG obviously have to be a little cagey when making public statements, but there are multiple examples where they have actively improved some game elements following complaints (and at times have taken no credit).


There’s only one thing I disagree with on your list

Playa please.

This statement is a stale excuse for an evil monetization practice that plenty of games manage to work around and still be plenty compelling.

There are many, many ways that hero rosters could be limited while allowing players access to more heroes.

In fact, you mention some of these methods with points 2/3: LB and AM. Realistically, players can only have so many ascended 5* heroes given the scarcity of materials. And, if SG really wanted to tamp things down, they could introduce new AM for new seasons of heroes, thus keeping the chase alive for all players to get and level the new heroes.

“Saturation of heroes in everyone’s roster.” Yeah, I see what you’re saying. But as gamers, we win when this happens. Because ya know what, it forces SG to have to do the work to make heroes balanced and interesting across the board. (To their credit, they sorta kinda do things to make slow heroes matter → rush wars?).

But ultimately, the people who do the balance work over at SG would have to be a lot more active. Up front heroes would need to be tested and balanced more vigorously. And in a world where heroes are more available, should a single hero become too common on defense they’d need to be adjusted in some way (change of stat lines, change of abilities, or worst case change of mana speed) to ensure the player experience isn’t suffering. (Stat line adjustment seems like a great way to nerf a tank anyway. Slap a 500 defense and 1300 health on em and dare the player to put them front and center :stuck_out_tongue: )

In closing:
If SG were not willing to work on its product more, and nothing else could change in the game to compensate… then yes. Summon rates would probably have to stay as is.

BUT, that isn’t reality. A lot could change to compensate for much higher summon rates (and/or a way to freely trade for or otherwise purposefully obtain specific heroes).

One last thing - on Emblems. Emblems could have been, and still should be, SGs way to really balance heroes. The class system is FINE. But it isn’t great. And I don’t see a single technical reason why heroes can’t have their own unique emblem path.

And that could really be a way to make heroes very, very interesting and make us as players very happy with our rosters regardless of who we have. (Picking on old Thorne - on his emblem path you could put +10% mana or something so he is almost a fast hero. Or you could put when he casts his special he gets +30% defense and Taunt. Or… so many things. And these could have variable costs so maybe it costs hundreds of emblems, some AM, whatever. Hell even a few hundred gems. The point is you could make your own Thorne. Instead… we get these boring stat bumps.)

So yeah. It doesn’t need to be this way. It is just super frickin convenient and most important of all, profitable to SG to have it this way.

Their game is otherwise very well designed.


I love it no agree with everything. The one I’d add is new resistances and changes in ninja tower, limit break quest, and newer challenge events.

The classic “just use proteus” or “use counterattack” or “carpet bomb” aren’t as easy. It’s not needed but it adds a nice challenge for those that want to take it on.

They should just delete and restart it all as I think it’s just all a big mess this game now. They hav messed around with it to much.

@Homaclese well done for having the guts to start a controversial thread, and to do it with such class :clap:

Ninja tower: I don’t mind that it’s hard, it just takes too darn much time. Too many levels and each level takes way too long. I do everything else first and if I have any red flags left at the end of the day I might throw them at NT. Usually I just go to bed instead :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

I agree, mostly, about summons percentage. Except I think they could introduce some sort of pity timer for those of us with truly sucky luck without impacting the game economy

:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: I am so impressed that this thread has remained civil so far :hugs:


Interesting discussion thus far. The OP makes a number of valid points, and I can’t form a reasonable counter argument that satisfies both the desires of the gaming group and the needs of SGG.

My biggest gripe also relates to the manner in which SGG interacts with the community. I am certain we have all heard the advice to underpromise and overdeliver. SGG seems to be taking the exact opposite approach here. Longstanding issues like QOL improvements, duplicate hero solutions and power creep have all received lip service from the company, but nothing meaningful has been done. Quite simply, if it’s on your radar do something about it. If not, don’t promise a fix and never follow through.


Great job writing this post. A lot of stuff which should have been obvious for anyone who tries to look at the broad picture. I felt like but never had the patience to do the job you just did here.


Ah that caused so much ruckus that they had to stepped in immediately. Or almost immediately to allay concerns that players have once again been “duped”.

I would take that as an emergency response situation. If it wasn’t, nope… they take their time, until they are forced to reply more promptly.


  1. Changing “moderate” to “small” for heroes like Toxicandra, Alberich. If it wasn’t for an eagle eyed player, it would have gone unnoticed. Now the question about Fenrir remains: is he still “moderate” and “small” or has he been changed to “small” and “small”? I don’t have him so I can’t check.

A forthcoming developer comes across as someone with more integrity with regards to their product. This way we would know what has happened and move on.

Not have to find out something and then quiz the developer only to get a Curt reply that specials are intact.

If you sell something, and something has been changed, then a proper announcement is due. No matter how insignificant it is to the developer. It is the customer’s perspective that is more relevant.

  1. Fixing the bug for Ursena and Kage specials. It took someone who knows game coding to suggest an alternative coding that works, more than 1 year after both heroes are released. And this bug was voiced out soon enough after their release. Was their an official statement acknowledging the bug? Was their an official reply stating that something will be done? Yes, there was something eventually, but so much later after the bug was reported.

  2. Response for other bugs used to be slow; it is now more prompt. Why? Cos the gravy train is slowing down. And more coal is needed to boost its speed, hence the improved customer service.

  3. Response to game emergencies like the Inbox spam, crashing servers from MT, the tournament that needed to be aborted, and then rescheduled … no official announcement in the inbox. Sometimes there is a pinned post in forum. Sometimes there isn’t.

If this was a hole in the wall mobile app, yeah…, no biggie.

This is an epic blockbuster game that has been sold for $960m so far… and they still don’t get it that good communication is key to friendly customer relations. Not everyone reads forum yah.


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