Why I am not spending more money in this game and how to win me back

I doubt that a solution concerning ‘‘guaranteed hero summons’’ will tighten this gap.

The assumptions about F2P players starting to spend money is not entirely in line with the reality. I believe it is safer to say that C2P/P2W players, who have shifted towards a F2P mentality, will more likely start spending money again. This would increase the amount of players who are C2P/P2W.

The gap between the “fewer” remaining F2P players and everyone else will become bigger than it currently is. Why? Because more players will have better chances, if not guaranteed options, to obtain random or specific desired heroes.

Despite the fact these players will be satisfied thanks to (possibly) obtaining guaranteed better heroes, the actual gap between F2P - C2P/P2W will get bigger. The game then also just shifts more towards a P2W direction, instead of P2Gamble&MaybeWinUnlessISpendTons. Exactly this shift has received so so so so many complaints already.

@Kerridoc somewhere mentioned a solution based on collectables, which will give everyone guaranteed heroes once they have a specific number of said collectables. This might be a solution to avoid widening the gap and still give you a feeling of progression.

The Gatcha/RNG/Gambling system works fine for SGG. I don’t see any reason for them to change this. The complaints regarding this system can be solved in many different ways, where rewarding C2P or P2W players for spending their money does not necessarily have to be the best way for the entire community.

On the other hand I also understand that a certain value for your spent money is a desired change. I am C2P and always feel a little uneasy to spend money on sumonning heroes. This uneasy feeling would definitely be taken away if I would receive some kind of reward for spending money. Not an increased reward as a result of the money I spent, but a valuable reward for the act of spending my money.

This has already been achieved in a way by adding the Ascension Materials reward chest in the Atlantis Summon portal. But why only there? And perhaps it could be something else for each type of summon.

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Thanks for the shout-out, Tom. Here’s the link to that “shards” idea.


I’m not clear that people do understand the effects of what they’re proposing

Thanks for such a detailed post. While I haven’t considered all possible outcomes, I have NOT included any examples or variations of what “guarantee” would mean or how it could be achieved.

The “heart” of the post, is “give us something instead of the chance of something”

How? Up to the devs. I loved your post, your math is accurate and awesome! However it is just “a” way to guarantee a pull.

Any other solution would be a step forward for me, even ridicule ones, for the sake of exaples and respect out of the time you took to do the math, I will elabotate a bit. But remember, these are purelu fictional examples.

  1. Set a direct buy on HOTM for $200
  2. Event Heroes: L = $100, E = $75, R = $10

That is ONE method, and one example of how to guarantee stuff (ie. Discard the gamble system)

Let’s suppose SG likes this… who will set the price? They will. So, maybe a HOTM will cost $500, or $1000, or $1… who knows?

Another EXAMPLE to not discard the gamble system:

  1. A 10x guarantees at least one of the “Free TC20” 5*, all other odds remain, this gives you something valuable, and completely solves the issue on your example

Shards, fragments, tokens, direct purchases, those are all viable ways to “solve” the issue.

Just remember, the core idea is “guarantee I won’t go empty handed” (you know, besides having 3* and maybe 4*, since one could argue that you always get something in return… let’s not pull straws…)

And again, AWESOME post. Felt almost like a riddle, I love math and odds and statistics, so you also gave me a fun time

I doubt that a solution concerning ‘‘guaranteed hero summons’’ will tighten this gap

You are right to an extent. It all depends on the balance.

A guarateed 5* from a 10x pull would mean P2W and C2P (btw, I asume that meas Casual spenders?) Would get a lot of 5* fast.

But it would also give F2P a shot. I repeat, there are no suggestions in this post, for people tend to focus on them and pull straws, but again, let’s think a way.

  1. Only the 1st 10x pull of the month gives you a Guaranteed 5* (example)

It’s all in the balancing. P2W will and SHOULD have an advantage over C2P, and C2P will and SHOULD have an advantage over F2P

Ideally, thay advantage should only be TIME. A great example of this is the VIP pass. A VIP player will max his base faster than a nom VIP, that is a good, healthy, monetization system.

Powercreep, gamble/gacha, and direct absolute P2W, is unhealthy (for the player base, ofc, as a monetization system is a goldmine and I said so in the OP)

So… what would be a good balance? I have ideas, of course, but I lack information. What is the revenue of this system? Would a change in the system affect the company for the better or for the worse? Do they care ONLY about money or are they willing to sacrifice a margin to keep the playerbase happy? Who knows… maybe they don’t care. Maybe they do…

Either way… I lost track… oh yeah, the gap.

Balance. Just that. There should be a way to improve F2P and C2P experience whilst keeping P2W happy


Also I don’t know why Small Giant have so many defenders on here. Every poster who suggests a tweak to the game for the benefit of players gets ridiculed by certain people

I really gotta learn how to quote from my phone… I applogize that my thread is looking so messed up, I will edit as soon as I figure that out.

I also don’t understand that, my friend. I wouldn’t call them SG defenders… just toxic people. They have resigned themselves to things “the way they are”. I try to ignore them, I do not always succeed.

I just will keep fighting, and trying to make the game (and IRL, the world) a better experience.

Edit: Yeah!!! I did it! Will start editing backwards, but it will take time

I want guaranteed heroes and I want them now or I will never spend another dime. If you give me everything I ask for then I will spend more money again, I’ll pay you on Tuesday for a 5 star hero today. I want my heroes to poop out ascension mats for other heroes. and why can’t my Richard and Sonya have a 4.5 star baby that will grow up and help me fight wars?

I think there should be a rule that you have to play this game for a year before you can ask for things. “I’ve been playing this game for 2 months and I can’t win events, and I can’t get into the top 100, I need free stuff and then I know for sure I can win this game.”

My alliance mate has never spent. He only has one hotm from saved up gem pulls and only one event hero from an event token pull. But he has several maxed 5 star heroes. How? Because he has been playing for a year and a half, he got his TC20s and played patiently. You all feel you should just jump in and get guaranteed free stuff and be where he is now? You really think that is fair?

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I’m sorry but your reply is exactly the type of example that I mean. You sound like a Small Giant staffer worried about their revenue. You talk about a $40 drop in revenue for them because you say it reduces the pulls needed from 300 to 285? Do you think everybody is paying $900 a month to try to get one hero? Half my alliance don’t even do one 10x pull a month because of the poor return.
I’m sorry but let’s end this conversation because your last reply has no relevance to the normal everyday player.

SGG staffers would just quietly ignore your post, because they definitely don’t have an interest in explaining to the community how much they’re making off us.

You can ask companies for whatever makes you happy. You can ask Apple to drop the cost of an iPhone to $500 because “then they’d sell a lot more.” They’d lose money of course, but they would indeed sell more.

The reality is that asking businesses to do things that end up costing them lots of money is unlikely to produce results. But if it makes you feel better to ask, by all means do so.


This exactly is of key-importance in this discussion. I understand why you were avoiding to write suggestions, but the very first suggestion you make does directly give your posts another turn.

I also agree with all of the advantages different type of players should have over others. If someone decides to spend thousands, then I’m totally fine with him or her having a big advantage over me. Without guarantees, this advantage is not as big as it would be.

Despite that I love creativity, I also think that ‘‘demanding’’ a change of or in the actual foundation of the game is sometimes too much to ask for. The moment players can obtain guaranteed heroes then one of the games’ foundations changes. I think you’ll need reasonable and strong arguments for that and that’s where creative possible solutions or options come in useful. They usually illustrate what you’re actually meaning and support your arguments.

So does this one. I think it’s a nice option to consider. It still favors the ones who spend money, but not a lot and especially not a lot when there’s no guaranteed specific 5* hero.

Let’s consider this suggestion and say that we only have F2P and P2W players. P2W buys VIP and the Gem offers before every Challenge Event.

VIP = 900 gems each month
Gem offers = 1000 gems each month (5x 200 gems)
Total = 1900 gems each month
Total per year = 22.800 gems

This equals a bit more than 8 times a 10x pull per year. In this example, combined with your suggestion, P2W will have at least eight random 5* heroes every year.

Let’s say that a F2P player obtains on average 15 gems per day. I have no idea about the actual number. This means they will collect 5475 gems a year, which is enough for two 10x summons and thus at least two 5* heroes.

If we would bring C2P into this example, I would replace P2W with C2P and assume that P2W obtains twelf 5* heroes each year.

Distribution then is: F2P two 5* | C2P eight 5* | P2W twelf 5*

Seems totally fine to me.

The other downside is that the current rate of obtaining ascension materials will probably be not enough to catch up with the possible twelf 5* heroes per year. This could lead to an increasing amount of purchased offers, which include ascension materials. SGG’s revenue then increases also.

Seems totally fine to me again.

But it still revolves around spending money in order to ‘‘win’’. A change as this would actually allow us to spend less money to obtain the stronger heroes, but it would also encourage us to spend money in order to get the stronger heroes and improve them.

Returning a guaranteed certain desired value for your money is a desired change by many players.


Would the game with such changes not head more towards a real P2W direction? And won’t that direction be actually more harmful to the game/playerbase?

Exactly this was the issue one of the biggest threads on this forum expressed concerns about; Are we heading to Pay2Win? Plus, other concerns.

You will need one hell of a balanced feature regarding guaranteed 5* heroes not to shift the game towards a P2W direction. I believe it’s pretty difficult to achieve. Your suggestion could be a nice start.

The first thing I think of is Atlantis Coins. They are collectable through map levels (limited) and wanted chests. Unfortunately for us they do not provide us with guaranteed 5* heroes. But they do allow us to possibly obtain a 5* hero without spending money and without needing the luck for the coins to drop. We do rely on luck for Epic Hero/Troop Tokens. We can farm (limited) the Atlantis Coins and then try our luck.

These coins are a great example, not fine-tuned for the much requested change concerning guaranteed 5* heroes, but it’s a nice start which actually doesn’t shift the game into a P2W direction.

So what if a suggestions is aimed on:

  • Guaranteed / Guaranteed random outcome; i.e. 5* hero
  • Possible at the cost of no money
  • Based on time/activity level

It would not take away the disappointment after not receiving a 5* hero after spending quite a bit of money. But it would also not alter the foundation of the game, while still giving us the opportunity to make steps towards competing on a more balanced level with each other.

Another out of the blue suggestion based on yours, variables can be changed:

  • Each Xth (10th) Atlantis summon will give you a guaranteed 5* hero

  • A player can only obtain X (1) guaranteed 5* hero during the period the Atlantis Summon Portal is available

  • If the draw decides to give you nine 5* heroes before your 10th guaranteed 5* hero, then so be it

  • Any regular 5* hero along with the Atlantis and Featured Past HoTM 5* heroes are inside the guaranteed 5* group

  • For each Epic, Event or Season summon you obtain X (5) Atlantis Coins

  • Each replayed normal Atlantis map level gives X (1) Atlantis Coin / Each replayed hard Atlantis map level gives X (3) Atlantis Coins


Despite that I agree with your long-term approach and actually like it myself, I can also understand that the incentive to spend money quickly fades away once you realize that you need a tremendous amount of luck or money to have certainties. Especially for those who can not progress any longer, unless they obtain certain heroes. For those players the odds are really too low and the current system doesn’t work as good anymore.

I am in no favor of changing this, but I like discussing about ideas to counter the fast disappearing of incentives of spending money or to actually keep playing the game.

It would be nice for them to have a way to keep progressing or at least get a feeling they can possibly help themselves, without finding a better payed job. :smile:

The upcomming Hero Classes feauture might help them with this.


you cannot close this gap and if you guys don’t see this there is no more to be said. if me and you started on the same day and I bought v.i.p and you didn’t, I’m automatically giving myself a chance to start progressing faster as I have two builders loot tickets and free gems daily. if i keep v.i.p. and you never purchase we will come to a point where even though we started the same time I have given myself more options to level faster so a gap is created. thier will always be a gap in the world between spenders and non spenders. some people go have NFL season passes and some people may never see a live game. that’s just life guys

Car manufacturers do it all the time with rebates/incentives. Yes they sell more but they aren’t selling each vehicle for what they could but it looks good saying oh yeah we sold 100 vehicles this month.

I wouldn’t mind some kind of incentive like the Atlantis pulls. You spend so much and have a chance at ascention items as opposed to heroes. I already have to many heroes sitting and collecting dust because I don’t have the mats to ascend them yet.

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you get free ascension items.from the chests so this is already implemented. the just gave away v.i.p. for 2.99 and had a daily event everyday with ascension items inside. how much more give can they do with out shooting themselves in the foot.

I mean this is a BUSINESS whose goal is to make money or is it not?

Calm down. I’m just going by what the OP was originally suggesting.

Those rebates/incentives always come from the manufacturers, not dealers. They’re also not always available—they exist as a way to balance inventory and keep factories operating. You’ll notice a lot more special sales just before the new model year comes out, trying to clear old models before the new ones arrive. Even Apple offered incentives this year—for the older models, not the new ones.

SGG doesn’t have any inventory issues, and as a privately held firm doesn’t have quarterly projections they have to meet to keep their stock price high.

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Why not to change the reward of maxing a hero to level 80 from 30 gems to a 5☆ hero of choice from TC20.
Wont effect SG at any cost but it will be good option to so many players.
Also as for compeleting S1.
But for compeleting S2 map I think its fair enough to let a player who finished it to chose from Atlantis heroes 1 5☆ hero.

This is actually a good idea. Or maybe every time you level up gives you one “shard” and when you level up ten times you get a guaranteed 5*. This rewards hard work and players would probably still be satisfied if it was limited to non event heroes.

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Im sure they have investors that want their money to keep rolling in.

@Kutai Thanks! I’m really glad you found it interesting and helpful.

I totally agree with you that “guaranteed 5*” pulls on the colored gates seems like a reasonable business decision. SGG already made the decision to let people draw these heroes for free through TC20, so all they’re doing is letting people accelerate that process in exchange for a little more money. And it would undoubtedly make players much happier to know they are getting a guaranteed 5* for their summoning money.

The HOTM are a different proposition, because SGG is still monetizing them by bringing them back through Atlantis. So it’s a little more tricky.

But honestly I suspect they could offer HOTM that are over 18 months old on some flavor of guaranteed pull. They have the ascension mats chest after 10 pulls with Atlantis. How about a “S1 or old hero” chest after, say 50 pulls? It doesn’t tend to help the whales much, but it would be really nice for C2P players who are willing to spend a bit more every so often.


Thanks for all the new ideas and insight!

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