When to level up a pure defensive tank (Kash or Justice)?

I guess I’d say I’m mid-game. I’ve got a few 5*s, Delilah in her final ascension, and Alasie starting her third, and still three 'scopes shy. Seven 4*s in their final ascension, ~half maxed.

I’ve been working on building a full AW bench of heroes toward level 60, and expect to be ascending more-or-less a third rainbow set next, and will probably have plenty to choose from by the time I collect the mats and finish up the ones I’m currently leveling up.

Sitting neglected in inventory at level 1, I’ve got Justice, and Kashhrek. Both appear to be top defensive tanks. Kash seems otherwise pointless. Justice isn’t that bad, but she’s still a slow mana hero, and those are a hard sell for me unless they are truly amazing. (Yeah, I’d totally go for Alberich if I could get him now, but I started playing months to late.)

At what point in the game do you spend precious piles of feeder heroes and more precious ascension items on somebody you really won’t/can’t use for anything but your defense team?

I’m currently raiding near the top of platinum, and while I’d like to cross into diamond someday, raiding isn’t a big deal for me–If I didn’t have a hero chest to fill raiding every day, I might not even bother half the time. Raid defense to keep my trophies doesn’t seem like a problem I need to solve where I’m at.

It isn’t like I don’t have no competent tanks either–Besides Del & Alasie, I’ve got BT midway thru his 4th ascension, and probably a couple others I could use that are far more effective offensively and/or for titans than either of the dedicated tanks I mentioned!

I leveled Kash (don’t have Justice) because I like his DEF in war, though there are definitely better. (I intended to do 3 Kashrek together, spread across the screen at some point) heh.

Interestingly, folks who talk to me seem to do the best against red tanks, and not so good against yellow tanks. Maybe that ol’ Justice might be of use? (But I’m only talking War here; I’d look her up at max before going that route…I too hate slow heroes!) :grin:

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I’ve got two Li Xiu’s (one not started; one at 1/26 that will be doing later round war attacks), and I’ve dreamed about someday maxing them both, and putting them flanking my tank (Not Justice; that’s too much yellow; dunno who I’d use) and nobody would be able to get a spell off with the two of them tag team swiping mana.

My problem with Kash is that unlike offensive heroes I can use well in my war bench at 3/60 or even 2/20, Kash is almost worthless at 3/60 compared to well … Skittles or any other green hero currently languishing on my bench behind Melendor & Caedmon, and even Melendor-2. Kash is only valuable to me when maxed.

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Oh, absolutely agree, my Kash didn’t step onto the field until he was maxed to his eyeballs.

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Which takes me back to my question…at what point does it make sense to level a purely defensive tank?

I can’t justify it now, as I’m still building out my AW bench, and will be busy with that for months most likely. And simultaneously adding more good pieces to my titan teams. And while I’m doing it, I’ll be leveling up my already competent tanks.

I’m kinda hoping that before I need to do something like maxing Justice, I’ll pull a hero that is a great tank AND is useful offensively, like Ares, Guinevere, Azlar, or Elena, and mostly forget about Justice, except for occasionally wondering why I’m still devoting a slot to hoarding her, same as I’ll do with Thorne…

You’ve already mentioned raid defense isn’t important to you at the moment. The other reason for a purely defensive tank is of course AW.

I would argue that for AW, your defense team has priority over your attack bench. It tends to see action more times than the 1 battle each attacker can take part in. Until… your defense team is so strong that it is usually passed up for another team on your alliance instead. The AW experience in my alliance, and I would presume all, is that the number of “easy pickings” among defense teams on the other side is a major factor in how well we can do, meaning shoring up everyone’s defense team is really important.

So then… I would suggest that you should not wait to level up your defensive tank(s) until you’re “done” enough with building your attack bench. You could take just some resources like only green or yellow feeder heroes to level up your tank while still using the rest to work on your attack bench.

In your position the only thing I would prioritize first is if you need to level up more heroes to defeat the rare quests and special events etc. in order to get the ascension materials from them. But it sounds like you’re probably already there.

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I realize I’m going against the meta of this game here, but slow AoE Justice isn’t just a great tank, she’s an asset on the offense as well.

First things first, she’s an awesome tank. I win up to half my defensive battles on the brink of diamond/platinum and she’s part of that.

But I also win 90% of my offensive battles, and she’s also part of that. Sure, she’s slow AoE, but buff her with Boldtusk and weaken the def with Isarnia, and she packs a punch like you won’t believe. 5 x 500 damage is nothing to scoff at. Oh and she blinds, which is ever so useful.

The only caveat to this strategy is that you must be a tiles pro. No tiles = no mana = no firing slow specials. If you’re not that good at setting off loads of tiles, go for the fast mana heroes. If you see the combo’s and know the ghosting, give some slow AoE lovin’ a try. It’s a different strategy than simply sniping the enemy to death, but it’s also very, very deadly.

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Justice is a very good tank. Go with her.

If you are still solidifying your titan line ups, leave both of them unlevelled.

And if you really want a tank for AW, have your alliance agree on one color and then go for that color.

@ChoppedLiver, thanks for your thoughts.

Yes, my main team is well developed for events and quests; I breezed through Farholme Pass without using any battle items, and I’m chugging through the Sand Empire nicely; I just finished advanced stage 15, only using one minor mana and 5 antidotes, and I’ve done most of the other levels with no battle items. I’m expecting to use a pile of battle items to blast the bosses in stage 20, and not have much trouble otherwise.

I’m not going to be using Kash or Justice as my AW tank. My alliance is using a unified tank right now, and it is blue. (Of course by the time either one is leveled up, that could change) Last war I used Kiril (He’s maxed). Alasie may be grown up enough to be better by the next one.

@Bertus, I expressed a preference for fast mana heroes; I didn’t say Justice was useless offensively, like I said about Kash.

But I don’t think that Justice is game-changingly good, especially if she is stuck at 3/70. And Delilah just got my last darts. When I finish Sand Empire, I’ll only have one dart. So Justice won’t hit her final ascension for many months.

I’ll be finishing up Wu Kong (4/51) and Delilah (4/21), and they are getting most of my yellow feeders.

I’m also working on getting a few more 4* leveled up to be useful for later round war attacks; I think getting them to 3/60 will take me farther than Justice will at 2/60 in the next month or two. And a good 4/70 (Probably Gretel, unless I pull Jackal in guardians) will probably be more useful than Justice at 3/70.

I can ghost tiles. I’m good with matches. And my prior experience with slow mana heroes and some average mana heroes is that they seldom survive long enough to fire their special. (Delilah is average mana, and she is durable enough to fire her special most raids.) And the ones I had trouble with also aren’t tanks like a maxed Justice, which means they get killed way faster.

Just to be clear–I’m willing to consider Justice as a powerful part of my team at 4/80, and my question is how far into the game does that become a wise and attractive option?

Do you (or anybody else?) see Justice as powerful and useful at 3/70?

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At 3/70 she’s just not strong enough. She only comes into her strength at 4/50+. From that point on you can keep her alive to fire her special. She does become tougher than nails beyond 4/70.

But at 3/70 she suffers from the same ailment all 5-stars have: not as tough as a 4/70 4-star with the same role. And in her role as tank, that actually hits painfully harder than for an all out offense character. Because in the offense at least you as the player can strategize and make the best use of it. In defense it’s all down to AI. A 3/70 Justice is a Lady in Waiting best kept safely behind your castle walls.

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I tend to look at heroes in a team perspective rather than individual.

I would also say that by pure tank I think of a heroe that has Average mana and highest defense per tier. Like Boril, Richard or Thorne. SG has made good job making tanks have tank abilities as well.

Justice is no tank by that definition. That said you are far better off with Delilah as center hero. If you want yellow center.

Kashrek on the other hand is a pain both in wars and raid defense teams. He forces the attacker to get 2x red AND a debuffer, and hope tiles are favorable :slight_smile:

Previous war was with heal aid and there was a guy with 2x Kashrek, Rigard, Boril and Wu. Needless to say no one was able to down him.

It all comes down to team composition and sinergy.

I’d level up Kash and rest Justice. Plain and simple :slight_smile:

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I have a maxed Justice as my tank in my defense team, she is definitely a good tank, I almost never drop out of diamond. Maxed, she is much better than kashrekk (good luck staying in diamond with a 4* tank :wink: ). But, I repeated it a few times, she has to be maxed, because she needs time to go off. And, if you have experience with going up against Justice, she is hit and miss as tank, wonderful if her blind works at the right moments, absolutely useless with lowish damage when it doesn’t.
Since you have no darts, just finish your other yellows first.

And to your question about at what point: she was my only yellow 5*, I wouldn’t have ascended her to be honest if I knew I’d have Joon and Vivica soon after.
So, I guess she does her part as tank, and I do use her for rare quests and other occasions, but I don’t like heroes with low attackstats and hers are low. Makes them useless on titans and events (or not very useful)

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Do you have enough AM for leveling Justice to final tier? She was my first 5* until i got Delilah and a good help even with her slow mana.

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Isn’t Delilah good enough to tank? She increase team’s survivability even after her defeat and unlike Justice (with blind) her minions can’t be dispelled/cleansed, on top of being faster.

Even if Kash 'n Justice are sitting in your bench you could ascend them according to your materials but Id rather wait to ascend Justice if you want to make pulls on Knights: what if you draw Guinevere and had to wait for darts again?

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And what if you don’t draw another holy 5 star for months on end?

I’m all for working with what you’ve got. True though, that does imply that if you indeed draw Guinevere, you’ll not be able to max Guin right there and now. Needless to say you’ll draw Leonidas instead :wink:

Delilah is 704 def, 1.345 hp maxed. Justice is 776 def, 1.425 hp maxed. Delilah is better than a Kashrek at 648 def, 1.321 hp maxed, but for raw tanking power Justice > Delilah. Both are equally useful from AI defense point of view since their abilities affect all targets. So sure, Delilah is a more than decent tank. There’s a very widely available dispel for Delilah’s minions though. It’s called AoE :wink:

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Yes, when it come to raw stats Justice is better than Delilah but to me, keeping in mind factors as troops, attacking heroes and possible counters, a Mana troop Delilah will be better than a (both crit and mana) Justice.

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What do you want to use your tank for? To stay in platinum, for now delilah is enough. To go for diamond, no, you are not ready yet. For AW, a maxed del is better then kash. You can forget justice for now as you are far from maxing her. If you are raising your first 5 star set, you should focus on heroes that have general purpose. It will help a lot in every expect of the game raid/titan/event and possibly an upcoming season 2. You also should raise more general purpose 4 star to help you with stacking and more importantly alliance war. Tbh, I am in the same shoes as you right now, having 12 lvl 70 heroes and an 80 Joon which I raised all for attacking, never defense. That said, I can hold my cup well at 21++ which is enough for me at the moment.

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Justice was the second 5* I maxed (behind Quintus). She is a pretty good tank but really only in defense, I’ve found. She just doesn’t do much damage, and on top of everything else, she charges slowly. The blind is powerful, yes, but also extremely unreliable. She can take a heck of a hit, though. I very rarely use her outside of a purely defensive role for that reason.

Put her side by side with Isarnia, and things might change—I’d also put Quintus on that team and watch the damage fly. But I don’t have Isarnia, unfortunately. Even buffed by BT or Kiril, she’s still very weak on offense.

I leveled her because I had no other yellow 5*. Do I regret spending the materials to max her? No, because I STILL don’t have any other yellow 5*. But for most applications, I rely much more on Chao for yellow.

@BarryWuzHere, to get back to your original question - when is the right time to raise a pure tank.

Basically, when you get to a point where you’re fighting and winning far above your cup score so that you jump up and just can’t stay there. For me, that was around the 2100 cup point. I could get up to 2300 cups pretty easily, but my defense was just not able to keep me there. I decided to level up my Azlar at that point and he’s helped me stay consistently in the 2300 cup zone.

Recently I’ve been trying out my Delilah as a tank, and she seems to be holding just as well as my Azlar tank, so you might be just fine using her instead of a ‘dedicated’ tank.

For reference my current D is Alby, Tibs, Delilah, Azlar, Sonya

Hoping desperately to pull panther next week, and get a few more scopes to force my decision between Alasie and Magni.

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