# What order should I use defence debuffers? š¤

Hi, I have a question regarding which order I should fire off my hero specials to maximize damage. For my red stack, I usually use Boldtusk, Guardian Falcon, Gormek, and Scarlett. After using Boldtuskās special to give attack up, should I attack with Guardian Falcon first or Gormek? Guardian Falcon does 225% dmg with 552 attack and gives -54% defense against fire. Gormek does 295% damage with 569 attack and gives -34% defense. I understand that elemental defense down stacks with normal defense down, but Iām not sure how to approach the math to calculate which order would lead to more dmg. Thanks

As a secondary thing, see below explanation of HOW the two debuffs stack

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I think specials arenāt tied to an element, except in special cases like Vela, so Iād guess Gormek before Falcon is the best order.

Are you sure about that? When I fight Kashhrek with red heroās and Kasshrekās special goes off, all my red heroās specials do way less damage

Elemental defense reduction does improve specials.

Example: When I hit with Frida + Grimm + Magniā¦

• Frida hits three for her normal damage and applies -IceDef
• Grimm hits much harder and applies -Def
• Magni just whomps his target from the combined -IceDef & -Def

I canāt find it, but some time back, I did some experimenting with the order of Frida & Grimm and determined that Frida going first was always better. But since my memory is fuzzy and I canāt seem to find if I posted about it anywhere, you have to decide whether to take my word for it or not. Better yetā¦ someone do some empirical testing!

EDIT: Found itā¦ not tested, just math!

Good gaming!

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Thanks for clearing that up. I thought I had read it the other way, but I never tested it. Now, if I just had Falcon, Freida, Evelyn, Panther, or Arthurā¦

Iām wondering what hero stat you put first, elemental or defense down (assuming both trigger at the same time)?

When fighting against titans or even raids if you had two heroes (letās says for Nature: Buddy- defense down, and Evelyn/Almur- green defense down), who would you have attack first?

I usually have defense down then elemental down afterwards but I wonder if one have them does greater damage or give a greater advantage when going first?

Let me know if you take anything else in factor like damage dealt (Evelyn does greater damage so she should go after defense down) or other stats (like Evelynās dispel so she goes first)

Iāve been wondering this for a long time and just never knew which is best or if anyone ever did analysis on it so figured Iād ask

Iād do your elemental down first, with one exception being Wilbur before Falcon.

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I start Buddy before Evelyn, Wilbur before Falcon, costume Viv before Jackal, CC before panther but Frida before Athena

Iām with @Starless. Most my elemental down are higher than the standard debuff so I fire them first. In battles I fire Wilbur first but against titans itās falcon. And Iām coming from a titan point of view. It may be situational in other cases. If thereās a dispel involved or something like thatā¦

I think elemental defense down first will do more overall damage if both heroes do damage. I havenāt done the calculation however. The comparison would be:

• Buddyās 205% dmg at 531 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -54% defense down
vs

• Evelynās 210% dmg at 727 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -34% defense down

Also who is CC? Costume Tibertus?

Ceshire Cat, 20 cat character

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I donāt think that thereās much of a difference.

On titans?
100% this - itās all about the tiles, a couple of hundred damage difference from special skills is nothing when your tiles are hitting 5k+ each.

On raids/etc?
Really depends on the heroes in question - generally Iād fire the one that does less direct damage first.

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I think there was a calculation done for Gormek and G.Falcon. In the case of these 2, G.Falcon firing first then Gormek deals more dmg.

Shifted this thread to a pre-existing one asking the same question. General consensus is to fire the one with the bigger defence debuff first.

Realistically it depends largely on the specific heroes you are using as the total damage done depends not only on the debuffs in place but the strength of the two strikes & the attack stat of the two heroes.

An older thread exists which explains HOW the two defence debuffs stack with an awesome explanation by @Kerridoc (Quoted above):

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## MATHS!!

As a follow-up to this I have run some mathsā¦

The TLDR is to fire the hero with the bigger defence debuff first. In all cases.

### Grimm vs. Frida Order

(attacking a 5* defender, looking only at the TARGET)

Case 1: Grimm first then Frida
Total Damage = 915.98

Case 2: Frida first then Grimm
Total Damage = 1278.09

### Isarnia vs. Frida Order

Case 1: Isarnia first then Frida
Total Damage = 1011.68

Case 2: Frida first then Isarnia
Total Damage = 1136.63

### Evelyn vs. Buddy

Case 1: Buddy first then Evelyn
Total Damage = 527.57

Case 2: Evelyn first then Buddy
Total Damage = 651.08

### Buddy vs. Almur

Case 1: Buddy first then Almur
Total Damage = 295.78

Case 2: Almur first then Buddy
Total Damage = 518.81

### White Rabbit vs. Jackal

Case 1: Rabbit first then Jackal
Total Damage = 879.97

Case 2: Jackal first then Rabbit
Total Damage = 1226.13

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@Guvnor

Please include combo of Panther & Tiburtus & c.Tiburtus, and Falcon & Gormek, and Frida & Athena & c.Magni.

Thank you.

Thats a lot of extra combinationsā¦ If I find time I will try to do them.

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Oh, and could you bring me some toast when youāve done? Two slices white, not overdone, buttered to the corners. Thank you.

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