What order should I use defence debuffers? 🤕

Yer, but specials are generally colourblind. So as long as your standard debuffer is the same colour as your elemental debuffer, there isn’t an additional damage due to the enemies element, that only comes from tile damage.


So the question is still a balance of attack power and depth of debuff.

I think.


I clearly stated it was a fake cap!


As a rule of thumb for me, whoever has the highest defense amount reduction goes first. And when there is one more turn on that present debuff, then the second one goes. Same thing if I was running one Proteus and one Hel or double Proteii and I wanted to keep one side of the field suppressed.

Defense debuff is the most powerful in the game, so the higher one has a bigger impact than attack stat ( see notes ).


For titans, and triple bosses, normal/ matching/ tile/ physical damage is more important so either order is fine.


Click for notes

Using the 5* damage formula as we currently understand it

Color stacking

3x Scarlett color stacking


1 - 54% green defense debuff = 0.46

( Attack stat / ( Defense * 0.46 ) )^1.35

Factor out
( Attack stat / ( Defense ) )^1.35 * ( 1 / 0.46 )^1.35


( 1 / 0.46 )^1.35= approximately 2.8528x damage next green tile or green tinted special attack



1 - 34% all defense debuff = 0.46

( 1 / 0.66 )^1.35= approximately 1.7523x damage next any attack


2.8528 green debuff x 531 Buddy base attack stat ( without troops and emblems) = 1,514.8368 attack

1.7523 any debuff x 727 Evelyn base attack stat ( without troops and emblems)= 1,273.9221 attack

1,514.8368 / 1,273.9221 = 1.1891x more attack stat for the second attack if Evelyn then buddy

So to maximize the damage from the second attack, green defense debuff then all defense debuff.



Seems to me that the def down %, attack value and special % would determine which does most damage overall…I don’t think you can look at one of them alone.

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I agree.

That is why I do not sweat the exact damage and deal with more general rules of thumb ( see notes )


Click for notes

Basic color stacking

Color stacking

Color stacking, Empires hidden buff

Neutral color stacking



Makes some sense, but since Evelyn’s defense down is -54% and Buddy’s is only -34%, that could change things. And as Jonah pointed out it contradicts the numbers that Expired published. I’ll do some of my own testing and see what I come up with. Also I have Eve at 3/70 and Buddy at 4/70/19 so that could be my biggest reason to fire Eve first.


Came here for the discussion - which was quite good, and I will continue to follow - but my takeaway is that we need to immediately rename the Trial of Strength to the Trial of Smash It. Make it so, SGG!


You are correct. I should have checked my own math. Eve first would give you a 587 (x3) bonus vs Buddy first at 518 (x3).

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Hi, I have a question regarding which order I should fire off my hero specials to maximize damage. For my red stack, I usually use Boldtusk, Guardian Falcon, Gormek, and Scarlett. After using Boldtusk’s special to give attack up, should I attack with Guardian Falcon first or Gormek? Guardian Falcon does 225% dmg with 552 attack and gives -54% defense against fire. Gormek does 295% damage with 569 attack and gives -34% defense. I understand that elemental defense down stacks with normal defense down, but I’m not sure how to approach the math to calculate which order would lead to more dmg. Thanks

@B1gHeadAss, I’ve shifted your post into a pre-existing thread asking the same question. Have a read up further in terms of the suggested order to fire.

As a secondary thing, see below explanation of HOW the two debuffs stack :slight_smile:


I think specials aren’t tied to an element, except in special cases like Vela, so I’d guess Gormek before Falcon is the best order.

Are you sure about that? When I fight Kashhrek with red hero’s and Kasshrek’s special goes off, all my red hero’s specials do way less damage

Elemental defense reduction does improve specials.

Example: When I hit with Frida + Grimm + Magni…

  • Frida hits three for her normal damage and applies -IceDef
  • Grimm hits much harder and applies -Def
  • Magni just whomps his target from the combined -IceDef & -Def

I can’t find it, but some time back, I did some experimenting with the order of Frida & Grimm and determined that Frida going first was always better. But since my memory is fuzzy and I can’t seem to find if I posted about it anywhere, you have to decide whether to take my word for it or not. :wink: Better yet… someone do some empirical testing! :smiley:

EDIT: Found it… not tested, just math!

Good gaming!

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Thanks for clearing that up. I thought I had read it the other way, but I never tested it. Now, if I just had Falcon, Freida, Evelyn, Panther, or Arthur…

I’m wondering what hero stat you put first, elemental or defense down (assuming both trigger at the same time)?

When fighting against titans or even raids if you had two heroes (let’s says for Nature: Buddy- defense down, and Evelyn/Almur- green defense down), who would you have attack first?

I usually have defense down then elemental down afterwards but I wonder if one have them does greater damage or give a greater advantage when going first?

Let me know if you take anything else in factor like damage dealt (Evelyn does greater damage so she should go after defense down) or other stats (like Evelyn’s dispel so she goes first)

I’ve been wondering this for a long time and just never knew which is best or if anyone ever did analysis on it so figured I’d ask

I’d do your elemental down first, with one exception being Wilbur before Falcon.


I start Buddy before Evelyn, Wilbur before Falcon, costume Viv before Jackal, CC before panther but Frida before Athena

I’m with @Starless. Most my elemental down are higher than the standard debuff so I fire them first. In battles I fire Wilbur first but against titans it’s falcon. And I’m coming from a titan point of view. It may be situational in other cases. If there’s a dispel involved or something like that…

I think elemental defense down first will do more overall damage if both heroes do damage. I haven’t done the calculation however. The comparison would be:

  • Buddy’s 205% dmg at 531 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -54% defense down

  • Evelyn’s 210% dmg at 727 attack (unemblemed) to 3 targets with -34% defense down

Also who is CC? Costume Tibertus?

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