Using Ascension Materials to shift game balance back between F2P and P2P

ascension_materials
f2p
p2p
game-balance

#1

this needs revisited but revised.

make the offer twice a month. put them on a rotating schedule like rare quests. one offer is an item like a cape then the next offer a couple weeks later is a scope

guarantee the mats if bought

Make them affordable for everyone and only purchased with gems

put the offers about 2 weeks a part and start at the end of the rare quest rotation once rare quests come back around to the beginning of their rotation so that the same mats don’t coincide with each other at the same time.

suggestion 400 gems for a cape, 800 gems for a scope

this would keep it affordable for f2p and c2p while still giving p2w the options to buy guaranteed mats. Remove mats from the current cash only purchases, add more trainer heros or troop tokens to those to keep them worth buying.

i think this would shift the balance of the game away from the p2p direction it’s heading.

mats used to be the #1 item that bridged the gap from f2p and p2w. sure p2w could buy better heros but they had to put the time in to earn the mats to max those heros. this would give f2p and c2p chances to earn more guaranteed mats they need without hindering p2w players or giving them further advantage

just want to say before it gets brought up that i do agree p2w players should have an advantage if they’re willing to pay for it, but if there isnt a better limit on that advantage then the game will eventually die. I’m getting players in my alliance that are coming from other games that have gone down that road, and they refuse to spend anything on this game because from what they can see, it’s headed in the same direction.

Sure at a slow pace with small steps but small steps towards p2p are still small steps towards the failure of the game

I am a p2p player, but i still want a well balanced competitive game that doesnt give too big of an advantage to spenders.

this would also add another dimension and strategy for some f2p and c2p players that feel they cant advance any further without spending or lose interest in even trying to be competitive because they cant buy their way through it like some of us do. Those players would have to strategize their gem spending for more than just heros. You can summon all the heros you want but if you cant ascend them then it doesnt do any good.

example:
players has played for 9 months or whatever, and has used tc20s and only used gems on elemental summons and limited time summons

player accumulates 30 4* and a handful of 5* but majority of those heros are stuck at ascension walls

this would give the player the ability to say “well stuck at ascension walls, think I’ll use my gems for the upcoming mats instead of summoning more heros that i cant ascend”

wouldnt lose revenue for SG. Wouldnt hurt p2p. Wouldnt give f2p a substantial leg up. But would help all 3 parties a little bit.

I’ll end the word vomit now

thanks for reading

hope to hear feedback. thought about making a new thread since this one is extraordinarily long (props for all of those well written thoughts and suggestions @tunafish )


My Breakdown on E&P
#2

I really like this Rigs…anyone else wanna weigh in? :smile:


#3

Why not having a ascending materials building? Maybe it will cost you more expensive then other crafting stuff but there could be a place which we can convert (like the barracks) and after level up for ascend materials (which the cost could be high (example :1m food, boots, chain shirt and 1week of time)

For 1 5*


#4

For 1 5* hero you need rare 8 3AM and 6 4 AM. That could be fair to everyone and at least you can craft anything you need and you know the time…


#5

i wanted to provide more guaranteed mats to everyone but keep a cap on it to hold balance. normally p2w players farm much more than f2p players, the building would give p2w an even bigger advantage and would definitely throw things out of whack. using gems to get a mat or two a month, is much different and more limiting than an ascenion mat building


#6

I’m not seeing how monthly purchases with 1200 gems per month help C/F2P more than spenders. Even with heavy farming you might earn 400-600 gems monthly, so that leaves a 600-800 gem budget deficit.

  • F2P could choose to buy every other month, or every third month as their gems allow
  • C2P might be able to afford that, depending on what “cheap” means. My alt is C2P and only gets $5/month, so won’t be able to afford to buy monthly.
  • Those with an ample budget just buy the gems and snag the items.

So to my read, this proposal widens the gap between cheap and free, rather than narrow it.


#7

the prices were rough estimates. C2p with vip accumulate over 900 gems a month just by buying vip. F2p wouldnt be able to buy every month but they would have the option if they save enough gems.

I have seen some f2p that do hit the wall and lose interest because they hit the ascension mat wall and lose interest in summoning more heros they cant ascend.

Would f2p be able to get every mat every month? no. but as f2p are they supposed to be able to get every mat every month? no. Would this give them the option of doing so if they hit a point they would rather have mats than heros? yes. Especially with atlantis tokens being earned in game, and them doing summons that way instead of using gems.

If f2p can save up gems for summons, why couldnt they save gems for mats?

wouldnt widen the gap because the gap is already there due to cash offers for mats and gems. But if the mats are offered for gems instead of cash and only come around monthly then i dont see how it could do anything more than give low cost players the ability to use in game currency for mats they need.

keep in mind devs have already been testing gems for mats over cash for mats offers to see how they would be recieved

and the gems for mats offers would be limited. so it’s not like c2p or p2w could just buy multiples of the same mats every month.

As of right now when we see guaranteed mat purchases, the majority of those offers are cash only and no one sees those widening the gap

this would be a small change, not a huge substantial change. Small change in the short term but could have a good long term effect

also if the mats are offered on a schedule/rotation like the rare quests it would give f2p to plan their gem spending

make mat purchases(with gems not money) available to everyone

let p2w use cash for offers that give more troop tokens, trainer heros, hero summons


#8

i see what you’re saying and it would most likely need tweaked but doesn’t everything need tweaked once released? this is just a rough and general idea. It would be up to devs to further critique it before release, then players to further critique and make it better after release

F2p know they’re going to be at a disadvantage when attempting to be competitive. This is just a little something to keep them engaged and give them obtainable goals to work on rather than just doing summons over and over with their free gems and praying for RNG to give them mats they’re missing in the next 6 months. This along with rare quests and events should allow them some solid long term planning of maxing some of their heros.

People have been screaming for mats. Devs dont want to just hand out too many mats because it would create imbalance. This wouldnt add anymore mats for p2w, but would give a chance for others to earn mats through gameplay by gem accumulation.

It would shift it from lets say 6 tonics a year that are available to all players, to 12 a year available for all players. And from what i can tell by looking at rosters of f2p and c2p players i know, they usually only have 2 or 3 5* they wish they could max, this would give them that guarantee that if they strategize just right and spend gems wisely they could max those 5* sooner than a year. So it’s not like they would be trying to get every mat that comes along anyways just like they don’t now. It would let them budget gems to get ones they need though.

probably just talking in circles

hard to get thoughts across in writing sometimes


#9

Just as @Kerridoc said:

Here is what I think will happen. I expect that the expenditure of P2W players (and therefore the number of AM = Ascension Materials) will increase relatively much more than the expenditure of F/C2P players. P2W players will relatively have a lot more ascended heroes available compared to the number of heroes from F/C2P.

I would be happy to be able to ascend 3 or 4 extra heroes each year. But it will not be beneficial competing-wise, because the players I wanted to try and compete with will now have 6 or 8 extra heroes each year. I would not mind this, because I will be satisfied with any given possibility to process further personally. But I understand that it makes the players sad, whose competitiveness partly depends on “the same scarcity” in AM for all players.

I also think that the lack of AM is a way smaller issue than some of us make it appear to be.

Players who habe been around ever since the beginning always tell us the opposite on this forum or in live streams. They say that acquiring AM is a piece of cake compared to how it was used to be. If I believe their statements, then the some of the recent implementations have expanded our ways to receive AM even more.

  1. War Chest. This seems to give everything we possibly need. Some are more lucky than others, but that’s basically the theme of this game.

  2. Atlantis Ascension Material Chest. This already favors those who spend more, but it’s once again an extra way to obtain AM compared to a few months ago.

If we do not want to widen the gap between P2W and F/C2P then I would try and come up with ideas, which provides all type of players with an equal amount of chances on receiving AM. Wether or not this has to be guaranteed type of AM is debatable again. I am just against the “get a guaranteed hero or AM for X amount of gems” ideas, unless it is a one time offer every now and then such as we have now already. I don’t see it creating more balanced competitiveness all around.

A simple suggestion could be; increase the frequency of rare/event quests or add an extra AM to the rewards.

Maybe even add some yearly missions we can complete; kill 600.000 mobs a year and receive X amount of X type AM. This could be changed towards a monthly mission if that would be a better idea.

Nevertheless if a shop for AM would be set up, I would advice to implement it as our hero summon system. Gambling with low odds. Less P2W aspect, but favors the spenders in general anyway.


#10

chalk it up to a bad idea and call it a wash.you guys are right c2p and f2p shouldnt be able to accumulate anywhere near as many mats as p2w do with cash only offers. let it die…thanks

game should just convert everything to cash only and get it over with. Headed in that direction anyways, would prefer it be sooner than later.


#11

guess what? P2p already buy 3 or more mats every month with cash. So no this idea would not give those players any extra opportunities to buy more mats than they already have. But it would give players that only use in game currency to purchases summons or whatever, the option to purchase a mat with gems if they want.

anyways last time I’m replying to this thread I called it yesterday when others encouraged this posting that the main point would be completely missed


#12

This game has not balance. F2P players have little space in this game.


#13

I did not call it a bad idea. It is not and I will share my view about that in a few seconds.

Instead of giving up on convincing other players I would encourage you to keep trying. Especially, because you have kept your messages structured, neat and kind. An example for people visiting the forum.

Despite that not everyone agrees (there will always be people having a different view, right?) your idea still has a valuable message and a possible solution.

I also get your point. Or let’s say, 2 points. You can and should adjust them if I’m wrong.

  1. This idea should help change the P2W direction the game is heading. I share the opinion that it will, partly. By removing the cash offers for AM and placing these AM into a “gem shop”, you create the opportunity for all players to “buy” these AM. Less P2W. Fantastic!

  2. This idea will keep our F/C2P more engaged. Fantastic again.

In terms of changing the P2W direction E&P is heading (or was, I have not been around long enough to have a proper opinion) this idea makes up a good solution.


We agree that it would add a F2P aspect and removes a P2W aspect. But I am not convinced that it does not widen the gap between F/C2P and P2W, even if it’s just slightly. I can be convinced and I would love to be convinced. :wink:

Why am I not convinced?

I understand that there will be less AM cash
offers and more AM gem offers available. I like this idea a lot.

However, I am unsure if in this case the amount of AM purchased by P2W players will decrease compared to the amount of F/C2P players. This can be the case if the gem costs will be low. @Kerridoc already explained why the mentioned gem costs is too high.

I also know you’re open to adjust the costs. But I think once we reach the break even point of gem costs affordable for both P2W and F/C2P players, then the costs will be hilariously low and not acceptable for SGG. Higher gem costs will still cause the amount of purchases of P2W players to be higher.

If these costs would actually be low it will speed up leveling our heroes by a significant amount of time, which is actually contrary to how this game is designed in order to distinct yourself from other players. Again, I would not mind and love it. But some players add more value to keeping their current level of distinction in comparison with other players.

Besides this, I do still wonder if the lack of AM is actually a major issue experienced by a big part of the community.

The other side of the story is that there is an actual strategy to spending money based on your current in-game situation. For example, I think people who solely spend tons on summoning heroes are not effectively using their budget.

Anyway, again, don’t feel discouraged to participate in the forum. I think your disappearance would be a loss for all of us. :+1:


#14

800 gems is alot for f2p people… Even 400 is.

Why not add in the building to ‘craft’ ascension materials?


#15

As a F2P/C2P player, I want to see more free opportunities in the game for free players.

Why? Because ALL strata of players are needed to keep this game fun, not just P2P. :slight_smile:

One of the things I loved about this game from the very beginning was its balance between F2P and P2P players.

This may not be THE idea (maybe it is?) but I liked what I heard. Let’s keep discussing it.


#16

Of course! I would love to see it also. We will never have enough AM.

Just as I said before, I do wonder if there is an actual lack of AM. Maybe that is only a perception some players have. I say maybe, because I have not been around for a very long time. I started in April of this year and the current rate of AM drops is fine for myself. It allows me to make better choices by waiting for the right heroes. I have also been able to work on 1 hero for each colour continuously ever since I started. That’s my (maybe fortunate?) experience so far! I understand that it’s different for everyone, but at what ratio is what I wonder about.

I do still hope the OP gets back to this thread and continues sharing his or her thoughts. I liked reading them.

@Rook how do you experience the balance at this very moment compared to the balance at the very beginning? An honest question, because I can’t answer it myself.

So let’s embrace the idea of our OP. What I would do is remove gems as the currency to buy those AM and add a new type of collectable coin. Let’s call these “AM Coins”.

I would implement it in the same way as the Atlantis coins. A minor change; instead of limiting them to 80 per level in each province, simply add the AM Coins to the rewards of all levels in the provinces, chests and mystic vision. Maybe increase the amount of coins received for higher provinces, so that farming these will get more interesting also.

This way it is equally accessible for F/C2P players as it would be for P2W players, except that P2W players could buy more energy refills. However, paying 100 gems per refill will quickly become very expensive to do. Players who are very active will benefit the most, but I think we all agree that they also should be rewarded the most. :slight_smile:


#17

Hmm, I weigh “enough ascension materials” against my bank of 4*/5* that remain to be maxed.

So…24 4/5* (2 of which are 5*)…I need 104 ascension items to max them all. :slight_smile:

The question then becomes, “Can I progress sufficiently swiftly that I feel satisfied but not so fast that the accomplishment means nothing and I get bored?

I find the answer is subjective, and also depends greatly on what I do. Do I farm all possible locations? Do I do every Rare Quest? Do I do everything I can do? Hmm…


#19

It is absolutely true that our answers to your question will always be subjective.

I do think that we are partly(!) in control of allowing our process to be ‘‘sufficiently swiftly’’.

How? You partly answered it already.

I would add to it: if you invest into the game - and if you build your base (duh) - do it in a strategic way. Build towards training epic and legendary heroes and/or balance your expenditures. One of the reasons an experienced alliance is ‘‘necessary’’ for those who have just started playing.

For those who are wondering why our process should not be “so fast (that the accomplisment means nothing and I get bored)?”

I’ve read this post today and it provides an excellent answer Why don’t they just increase the frequency of Ascension Materials?.


Anyway. I would answer your question with:

I can for now. But within half a year I will have to adjust my goals and mindset, so that I will still be able to feel satisfied.

How would you answer your question? I don’t take ’‘Hmm…’' for an answer! :wink:


Anyone has other ideas about how to shift back the game balance between F/C2P and P2W regarding ascension materials? Or adjustments he or she would make to the OP? I’m very curious.


#20

Do you really think that being able to buy the tools helps f2p? By God, if that’s the only thing that balances the game.


#21

I think this idea has potential, especially if the AM coins cannot be purchased for cash or gems. Let them remain as a random drop from map levels, chests, Mystic Vision, and quests, so that F2P and C2P players have essentially the same chances to get them as P2W players do. Have a set price (in AM coins) for 3* and 4* nonfarmable ascension materials and allow the player to select the material they need.