Time for me to go & my parting feedback

That’s the thing though. People can spend more to maybe be competitive. (Though I guess in the end, if they spend enough they can have everything…)

The prices are hefty for the content in my opinion (VIP is ok, comparitively) , but such is life in this new lootbox driven game meta.

However, the completely non-subtle way that they’re trying to push the power chase is comically bad.
For example: the war pack for gems that was shoved in my face recently. It’s been acknowledged that AW MM is a work in process and is not running optimally, and that there would not be so much work on it over the summer break. So then selling war packs is supposed to be a joke right?

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Thank you for sharing your constructive feedback and I’m sorry to hear that you are leaving @Ellilea, your contribution here will be missed!

Regarding forum moderation, we have staff here as well and we are actively monitoring the forum. As we are a small team, we cannot actively participate in the discussion here in each topic. We really appreciate the work that our volunteering moderators who do it of their own will. Rest assured, our team is actively reading the forum and feedback is taken into consideration. We have and continue implementing player requests to the game but as game development is complex and there are many moving parts, we are cannot guarantee when/if any certain requests will be implemented.

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As the future of the game is coming, messages like this will be the bread of every day. As I see it SG has two paths to follow right now. One that is the one that seems to be the one who leaves, in which the goal is to fill a lot of pockets in the short term and then probably the game will die, but they will have a very good sum. And another in which to put the long-term views and make a game that really lasts over time, sacrificing income in the short term but … making them last over time. I’m wrong, I hope …

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That’s a half-arsed reply if I ever saw one! Guess the real issues will always just be brushed aside! I’m done trying…

I’m sure game development is complex, but why should it be so hard to make this game more rewarding for f2p players? There used to be a time when the elemental chest gave us gold hero tokens and not just three silver tokens. It used to be amazing and something to look for. And it gave f2p a more realistic chance to improve. I’m not saying the elemental chest alone is the reason why players are leaving. The first post summarizes it very well. I understand SG need to make money, but think about the players too. A game isn’t amazing because players are “forced” to pay to get what they want. I miss a realistically chance to improve in this game. But ofc, this is just my opinion.

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You will miss us and about your post… it hurts 'cause it’s true.

The thing that hurt me the most is the lack of communication about the next planned steps (proposed via posts and voted) as the famous Proposal - New Building: Alchemy Lab, that didn’t even make it on shortlist of frequent requests “Requests that we are considering, but not working on currently”, the topic where we can actually read upcoming changes before new versions would be implemented.

Really, what is the suggestions forum even for?

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I don’t want to distract too much from the excellent OP… but yes, having a perspective on your goals and competition is key.

If you’re a dedicated f2p player it’s still going to be a struggle to be top dog.

But if your team and alliance are developing you’re constructively, engaged in these discussions, having a chat with new friends, enjoying a bit of escapism and you are having fun

Then you are winning the game.

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Same view on so many different things, so i guess i will reach your same conclusion soon enough.

It was a pleasure to read you, now and before.

Hope to see you again in some other similar game.

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First of all, thank you, @Ellilea for such a big contribution to the discussion. Everything there is correct. I would only like to add that, with an alt leading a training alliance, I noticed players are already frustrated or bored with the game with just 2 months of playing. We have big spenders, cheap spenders and no spenders, and they all had at least one reason to be angry -or bored- and prime candidates to quit. The game went wrong at some point. I started 10 months ago and it took me at least 6 months to find it somewhat aimless.

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Sorry @Guy, you are ignoring one important fact. The nerfing of the loots makes it much harder for new players to go up. The older ones had it much easier. The best evidence is the nerf of epic tokens. In the past you got much more which means you had more chances for better heroes.
It’s clear that you need to invest money if you want to reach the level of longer playing people. But because of the nerfs you need more money then the older players. And that’s not fair.

I for myself haven’t reach the point where I want to retire yet. Last days I made it in the TOP 250 and place 49 locally. But I can’t hold it. The opponents in that range all have at least one HOTM in their team. Most players have three or more. I guess these players have almost every 5*. TC 20 gave me three 5* up to now. Marjana (I allready had her), Quintus and Thorne. The last two have a C rating at Anchor’s list. So normally they are not the ones you would level up if you have limited ressources. But look at Ancor’s list again: The really good 5* are either HOTM or event heroes. Why are the special? Is it fair that only the top buyers or the real lucky people can get them?

So I also see what’s going wrong and we also loose good players in our alliance because they are disappointed. Here in the forum the proponents of the game have a simple explanation for everything: It’s all about RNG. For them it’s normal that a player gets 3 HOTMs with a 10x pull, now having 8 Gregorian in his roster, while others trying it 200 times without getting a single one. It’s normal that a player gets 9 4* and 1 5* with a 10x pull. You will never read in these topics that there is something wrong with the game itself.

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@Peter1976, before saying that I am ignoring one important fact, you might want to read my first sentence where I agree on many points of the OP (basically all but one). I have seen indeed that loots have been nerfed. I personally cannot assess how much compared to the beginnings of the game since I only play since late December 2017, however I have experienced the drop in the better tokens in elemental chests for instance.

Luck is definitely a big part of the game, there is no question about that. B now, we know that tc20 produces 75% of 3*, 20% of 4* and 5% of 5*, so it is a matter of time before you start getting 5*, however there is no control over which ones you are getting. Obviously we all wish we had more control over which heroes we are getting and how often, but I don’t this has changed much (other than the fact it may be more difficult to get epic hero tokens for free). The game is not perfect, or at least has some frustrating aspects. And the rules/mechanics are being changed as time goes by, sometimes for the better, others for the worse. Today, I may not be as negative as other days, because although the rare 9* titan my alliance was facing escaped, I still got a Royal Tabard (loot tier V!), so RNG can work in your favor at times.

Everyone can complain about not getting what they hoped for, but I have yet to see anyone answer the question I raised in my reply (4th paragraph)… and you are no exception.

@Ellilea im sorry to see you go, i agree with your statements.

I realized i would never have any 5* heroes leveled if i didnt spend money.

Unfortunately we all will hit a wall sometimes, things will get boring, farming is gonna be testing our patience, and loot tickets are now being sold? And they still use world energy? :confused:

Hopefully season 2 wont widen the gap between f2p and p2w, hopefully we wont have same heroes with different stats (spending gems to have a stronger Joon than the regular one is just unacceptable IMO)

But i did notice from when i began playing to today how the tables have been turned, now we are constantly receiving offers, and hence the idea for rare loots being nerfed, so you will eventually get stuck with your heroes and consider spending on offers to get your 4* darts, tonics, rings, damascus blade etc…

That is how i got my a rainbow team 5* to 4th ascention, truth is i had to spend to get the mats.
I am glad we gave our weekly rare quest that do help us on the way, but still it is so rare that gathering up 6 of each item takes too long honestly.

I am a supporter of the game, and hopefully we dont lose more players like Ellilea.

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@Ellilea thank you very much for this post. It was well written and formulated and a real pleasure to read, and I guess not only because I agree with you.

At the moment this game is developing into a direction where it will crash and burn (in a not too far future). From what I’ve read here (only rumors, though) maybe already fast after intro of season 2.
And at the moment I truely believe, that the powers that be (not the devs, they really don’t have much choice I guess) don’t mind “destroying” the game, if on the way “enough” money flows into their pockets. When this game is “dead”, grow a new cow to milk.
Granted, this is a very pessimistic view at the future of this game, but they are really not helping with their decissions.

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@Guy answering your paragrath 4 question: are you really not getting the difference between “being able to choose from a board of, say, 10 fitting (for a given task) 5* HotM or event heros and showing in the forum (very impressive, btw.) to level a 5* hero within a day” vs. “not being able to gather enough items at all within (almost) a year to level even 1 5* hero” ???

In general:

About “patience”: really ??? Waiting almost a year to fully ascend one 5*, and then giving up is still not patient enough??? Really???

About RNG (I guess that should be some acronym for randomness) and the so often cited "you just got unlucky"s, “you will be lucky again”, and the much loved “you have a change for …”:
There is a (playing this game I start to thing good) chance, that you will suddenly disintegrate and reintegrate (fully!) at a totally random place somewhere in the universe, right beside a hot, horny, compatible alien girl, who right away silly f-words your brain out and right after you’ll reintegrate in the exact position you’ve left, right in time for dinner. The chance for that is strictly bigger than 0, but, of course, there are not enough zeros in the universe to put after the decimal point, to write that chance down.
My point being: if you do not give a precise percentage (and people believe you), saying “there is a change” is just an empty phrase.

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@LarryLaffer, I read frustration, but no answer to my question.

Can you decide to run a 100m race with 5 people who are juiced up, 5 bone fide athletes, all of which have had a 2-second head start and expect to catch up to them and even win? I don’t see how you could reasonably expect that. But it seems many do, and then are disappointed/frustrated… One needs to manage their expectations and understand in which way they can actually be competitive. I recognize that there are issues with the game and the changes devs have made. I am only discussing the competitive aspect.

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The OP describes many areas for improvement and hopefully at least some of them will be taken into account for implementation. Thank you for writing this thorough message, a complete selflessly and empathic act.

Guy replies to this and includes a question he has been asking multiple times:

I have been playing since March this year and lack the experience to express thorough and correct thoughts. However, based on what I have read on this forum so far I would like to clarify the situation more.

As the OP has concluded, getting ahead is achieved by obtaining the better heroes and rarer ascencion items more often than other players. The system is developed in such way that players can invest money to increase their chance of summonning these better heroes and buy guaranteed packages of ascension items when these show up. A player who invests none or a couple of bucks every now and then is unlikely to get ahead due to the small odds of pulling the excellent heroes and the few ascension items they sometimes obtain and/or buy.

To increase your chances of getting ahead you can invests a great amount of money and hope for the best or continue investing great amounts of money until you obtain what you aim for.

A logic answer to Guy his question is: a miraculous miracle.

In the OP Ellilea writes:

The game is designed to give ‘‘big spenders’’ a higher chance on making a bigger difference when they invest money compared to those who invest a little or nothing at all. If you don’t, then you do indeed need more luck during summons and rewards, more patience and more strategic skill during raids.

I often read on this forum about players having the feeling of being unfairly treated, concerning this aspect of the game. They don’t get their expected return on investment; money-wise or time-wise.
And because of this they can not compete with the current top players on whatever aspect of the game. I understand and agree with the reasoning about not being able to compete as much as you want to.

I don’t agree with the reasoning about being unfairly treated. I think it’s reasonable that the ‘‘big spenders’’ actually deserve to be able to become one of the best more easily and faster. They make excessive use of the system which provides a higher chance to achieve this goal and still need to invest lots of time doing so.

In other words, if I had played for a year and have spend €300,- I think it’s fair to say that I should be ahead of someone who had played for a year and has spend €30,-.

If what is written about nerfing drops and increasing sales with regard to ascension materials and hero tokens is true, then the Devs are indeed trying to make more profit. I am convinced that they know what risks this entails, such as reducing the number of players. Whether or not it is the right strategy to raise more money and if it is ethically responsible for everyone among the current loyal player base, that is debatable and needs feedback.

This feedback must be objectively written. The opinion of unfair competition, because someone can / want to invest money is unfounded. That is a way you want to play. Something that you can decide yourself.

The opinion of unfair competition, because someone who invests little, is getting less and less chance to prove himself (due to a drop in drop rates), already has better argumentation. I can understand that and that might happen to me. But that is still a personal choice. No matter how crazy it sounds, I can understand the Devs. If you can make 100 people pay 50 euros per month more and you lose 10 people who pay nothing, you make more profit. It is not fun, but that is doing business.

It is up to the Devs to determine where the breakpoint is. When do they lose so many players that it is no longer viable? Do they want to counter this? If so, they have to make changes to the irritation points of the players. And well-structured feedback such as the OP helps with this!

Ascending one 5* a year apparently is a major issue (for F2P or players who invest little) and causing lot’s of complaints and people to leave. It would be a nice starting-point, if the Devs want to keep E&P viable.

Sorry for grammar mistakes or constructions. :grin:

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English is not my first language either.

To avoid some of the frustration, it’s been recommended in my alliance to track all unfarmable ascension items we get by playing the game (without paying for them, so rare quests, monster/titan/raid chests, titans, etc.). And each of us averages at about 1 item per day, which was higher than the overall feeling was before we started tracking. Getting enough items for a 5* in a year is completely realistic. It still takes a long time to get the feeder heroes to level him up, though.

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@Guy

Will just try to answer that point of yours since you say you’re trying, and failing, to get answers from others.

a) if a game has competitive aspects - ladders, scores, challenges where you compete against other players, to a competitive person being the best (or striving to, and knowing they stand a fair chance) is going to be the goal

b) if a game is difficult, but is not based on PvP competition, then it’s fair to strive to just better yourself and other players (their strength) does not affect one’s personal enjoyment and feeling of accomplishment

Let’s take a look at a theoretical event, based on the E&P challenge events.

Currently:
if you want to “take up the challenge”, you have to compete with other players, and, as it is right now, you can’t, unless you shell out a mountain of cash

Alternatively:
you don’t have to beat other players to receive any reward - you have to get to X points to enter a new reward threshold. Therefore, you’re competing with the AI, boards, and have clear goals ahead of yourself. Whether Zero scores 50k points more than you has absolutely no bearing on how you do and what you get.

Case 1 - competing vs. other players is moot and your skill is hardly relevant if your team sucks (despite being maximized as F2P

Case 2 - get better, climb better, strive to achieve your goal and “complete” the event (in a score-way, not stage-finishing way)

In the second case, the P2W aspect becomes WAY less jarring and WAY less relevant. Because you’re playing to best yourself and achieve your own goals.

Does that help?

As for the second part of the question.
There is a major difference between.

a) I pay money to get things faster - I don’t have to wait for SH20 to get good heroes, I can ascend them all quicker, I can get maximum event rewards faster
b) I pay little to get a small edge and nudge me forward, I keep climbing at a decent pace
c) I am F2P and it will take me much longer to get to the point where I can ascend my heroes, collect them all, and max the events, but I’ll grind my way to it

and

a) I pay money to always be better than F2P players. I not only get things faster, but most importantly, I get exclusive things they will never see, which means they can never truly compete with me, even if I stop playing now and they grind for another year.
b) I pay little, but the boost is small and it only gets me to the “hit the wall” point faster. If I get an insane luck, I might be competitive, but that’s a fat, fat chance. Blob-fish out of the water fat shaped-chance. Basically, same as F2P.
c) I am F2P I can forget about ever being competitive with other players, I can only enjoy the casual content in the game

~~

@Petri
They may be around, but if we don’t see them, we don’t know or feel it, do we? So it doesn’t matter much to us :stuck_out_tongue: Ninja dev mods :man_shrugging:

I don’t know. I just believe in the dev presence in the community. The less distance there is, the better the contact, and the more trust from the playerbase.

~~

Thank you to everyone who wished me farewell and I’m happy to know that all my longtime spamming on these forums was enjoyable to some of you :blush:

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With regards to my question:

I was more looking for the short answer “you can’t”.

And my question was mostly in reaction to your statements:

But here’s the problem - if you don’t pay in this game, you cannot, and will not, be able to compete on the highest level.

Was I a dummy expecting anything else? Maybe. But I thought that patience and SH20 will eventually open the door that’s locked behind the pay wall.

My point was that to your first point I quoted above, it is not a problem, simply normal that things do not and cannot come for free; and to your second point quoted above, I do think you had the wrong expectations. If you try to see it from the other side (the P2W side), if you had your wish, all the P2W players would be wondering how dumb they have been to pay and be caught up by F2P players. The very idea that there should be ways for F2P players to catch up to P2W players would mean that paying for anything in this game makes you a sucker, would deter anyone from paying for anything and means the game would just die because the devs are not making money. Now clearly, they are making money, and one can reasonably argue that maybe they are pushing too much that side of things and deterring F2P players to even bother with this game. But like I tried to point out and you did as well in your reply to me, there are ways for F2P players to enjoy the game, as long as they manage their expectations.

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If you are looking for one specific answer you came up with then why ask questions and go around looking for it?

I don’t agree with you, and will not. There is a difference between P2W getting things faster (and prettier - cosmetics), and P2W getting things F2P cannot get no matter how long and how much they play.

“Expectation managing” in a game that employs PvP should be based only on two factors - time invested (accounts for RNG boards/teams/disconnects/bad days etc) + skill.

Get rid of the PvP aspect and we can talk about managing expectations “to better oneself” and playing one’s own game withing the game. Otherwise that’s only something casual players can do. Nothing wrong with being a casual player, but bulking everyone together with them just doesn’t work.

With a PvP game where P2W exists, competitive integrity is dead and competitive players have nothing to look for unless they want to fork out the golds.

And even then, I’m not convinced. If I were to push to compete I sure would like it to be on my merits and knowing that I had the same chances as everyone else. I was just better :man_shrugging:

Anyway, that’s it from me. If that still doesn’t address your concerns, maybe someone else will respond better.

In the end, all the stuff one buys in a game is only worth anything while the game is alive and many people play it. It’s in everyone’s interest to keep both P2W and F2P players happy.

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