Thumbs down to devs, thumbs up to moderators and my teammates

Speaking only for myself, I don’t see any moral or ethical problem with the gacha model. I feel it’s broadly morally equivalent to a casino, lottery or betting shop and I have no issue with those venerable institutions.

Gambling is a perfectly legitimate and fun way for a person to get entertainment from their disposable income. Some find it addictive and have difficulty controlling themselves, obviously - a gambling problem can be very destructive - but the same can be said for people’s relationships with alcohol, cigarettes, pornography and even social media. (Personally, I regard gambling as a much better use of a person’s time than indulging in any of the others, and the providers of gambling opportunities as much more moral than the providers of any of the others.)

It’s my view that we ought not to protect people from themselves. In a world in which we did, I’m sure I would immediately be protected from myself in all sorts of well-intentioned and incredibly annoying ways. You might be, too. In that direction lies the death of all joy.

Needless to say, gambling providers should behave ethically. I think SG do. An early, very valid criticism of the game was that summoning odds were kept secret, left to us forum denizens to estimate. That, frankly, was not fair or ethical. Nowadays the process is entirely transparent and no longer a concern. Children should not be permitted to gamble (undeveloped brains and all that). I don’t think that’s a concern here, unless parents are allowing their kids to make unsupervised online purchases, in which case it’s frankly their fault. I don’t see any other obvious ethical traps into which SG is falling.

As to whether the gacha model is the best business model for the game, I don’t know - I often speculate, but I’m no expert in the area and my opinion is near worthless. The people who are experts in the area are SG. They seem to think the model works and they have enormous success as evidence to back up their position, so I’m prepared to accept it.

It’s perfectly fine to talk people out of throwing their money away. (I try to do the same, on a fairly frequent basis.) It’s also perfectly fine to try to convince SG to change their pricing model. But just as you should feel free to describe the status quo as “predatory and P2W” (:roll_eyes:), so you ought to recognise that other people who see the pricing model as perfectly acceptable and a key reason the game is not P2W will probably express their contrasting views here, too. That we do so is not an affront to you - we’re just talking.

Despite your running theme of persecution, no one is stifling your ability to express your complaints or suggesting that you leave the forum. From your first post in this thread you told us that you expected to “get [yourself] booted” - later you explained that you wanted this to happen. That’s just not how this place works. So long as you stick to the forum rules then you’re welcome here.

(But if people sometimes tease you about leaving the forum, that’s probably because you stated that to be your aim and desire from the beginning.)

No one has said this except in your fertile imagination. Make your case and be prepared to defend it. We’ll chat. That’s what we do.

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Evidence? None? Cool.

New forum folks reading this ought to look into Brobb’s reputation before registering what they say. :slight_smile:

It’s understandable why SGG wouldn’t want to address the broken/tampered RNG, ignore the propaganda bots.

No one is ever qualified to speak to their own reputation, but I second that advice. Also, I’d suggest forum newcomers review the posting history of @TheDayHasCome, then come to their own conclusions.

Evidence? None? Cool.

It is a waste of time to reply thinking you’ll change minds, but you could stick around to educate new players on why buying the RNG (i.e. spending any money on the game) is a bad idea.

I’m hopeful that simply acknowledging the fraudulent RNG will help frustrated players understand that they’re being manipulated, not provided a real game designed by game designers with game players in mind.

Not so they’ll quit, just so they’ll be able to get past the bad feelings this game creates, and so eventually the issues (tampered/broken RNG, lack of gameplay design) will be addressed by Zynga.

Evidence? None? Cool.

Question for @TGW: do you believe that the game’s RNG is “fraudulent”? That’s certainly not how I read your comments.

Lol I don’t agree this happens all the time and and don’t agree with all that’s listed but I also have seen a change. But regardless I love the game - Sadly I’ll probably play until he end of my days or the games :smile: :laughing:

I like how you worded your goodbye letter. I can relate to your frustration as I’ve also played for years The odds are against us but for me the joy I get playing it out weighs the disappointing draws. Somebody somewhere gets the good heroes. Most of the time it’s not me. But it’s exciting when it is. hope you don’t delete your account so if you do want to come back you don’t loose all you’ve earned - Good luck!

You make perfect sense with your arguments, and you sure aren’t going crazy. But I think that what you try to explain can’t make sense to anyone who fully embrace a exploiting growing pattern.

People might continue to spend at this game for the years to come, and some might come to realize in the after math of it all that they could have bought that car that they needed, or a boat, a house maybe? But instead ended up with moving pixels on a screen, and be perfectly happy with that.

Let’s just take a moment to appreciate that we atleast did not end up with the same exceeding costs that this provides each month, to happen to us earlier when we where kids. This whole money grabbing machine, not just this game but all of the phone games continue to undemine various values, patterns. It is like looking at a train crash in slow motion, moments before the impact, shockingly interesting maybe, but not good.

As I said, I think you make alot of sense, but just don’t expect that the majority on a forum like this to understand those meta points you make. Because for anyone who praise a model like this see it much more from a black and white perspective than you do. “You either buy or you don’t” end of story. The best thing you can do from there is to make a pray for them that they don’t end up being a victim of a addiction pattern that spiral out of control. And maybe they won’t end up there, but It sure will cost them a small fortune to keep playing this game either way, and if they can afford it, atleast it won’t hurt them more than it have potential to do.

You can’t change peoples mind, but you sure can tell them how you think and leave it at that.

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Okay. I guess I need to further explain my position.

Yes, I am asking to be permanently kicked from the forum, because I don’t really care to continue these debates when it’s clear that there are many here who are perfectly fine with the current system. If I say I think it sucks? I’ll get some who agree, but most of those are people who are on their way out, quitting the game. Those who stick around are obviously okay with the current model, and thus, will never agree with me. So there’s no reason for me to continue arguing against people who will never see my side. That’s as futile as going to a political party forum and trying to argue the points of the opposing party. It’s a waste of time for everyone involved because no argument, no matter how logical or convincing, will ever change anybody’s minds once they are dead set on their opinion. That’s why I want to be kicked from here, because I cannot accept the gacha model as being fair or reasonable, and I know I’m wasting my time arguing about it, because I cannot change your mind either. Ordinarily I would be happy to settle with an “agree to disagree”, but in the case of this forum, I’m always going to be in the minority in my opinion. I feel about as welcome here as an atheist in a church.

I don’t gamble very often. I know I have terrible luck. But I still voted to allow casinos in my state, because I believe people should have the option to gamble if they want to. Yes, personal responsibility and all. But as you pointed out, casinos are highly regulated. And this is a game, not a casino.

… anyway, I could write an entire essay on how casinos and games differ, and how they should differ, etc. For the most part, I agree that adults should have the right to waste their money however they see fit. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it, it doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to criticize something that I think is absurdly overpriced.

People spend hundreds, thousands of dollars on this game for a “chance” to pull digital sprites / hero “cards” that stand there and do nothing (aside from providing X bonuses to your color match gems and allowing you to use Y special skills). Is it cool and fun to mix and match different hero combos to figure out which ones work best together? Of course. Is it cool and fun to pull a new rare hero from the summons portal? Of course. Is it worth spending hundreds of dollars on?

Ummm… well obviously that’s entirely subjective, isn’t it? Guess it all depends on how much disposable income you have. Maybe if you’re used to wiping your butt with $100 bills, dropping a few grand on a mobile phone game isn’t really that big of a deal. And if someone who doesn’t have that kind of money is tempted to spend it anyway because they really want those fancy hero cards, and they end up going into debt over it? Their own fault. They should’ve known better. Nobody to blame but themselves. Those of us who know better, know not to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars, because we know the odds, we just have to hope we get lucky in our summons, or settle for whatever the training camps are willing to give us.

Your opinion seems to be, that’s okay. My opinion is, that’s not okay. My opinion is that this sort of mentality jeopardizes the entire future of gaming, if we normalize this pricing model and allow game developers to believe that customers will continue to accept this, if they all think they can get away with charging people hundreds of dollars for a “chance” at obtaining some in-game item, it’s only a matter of time before all games start following this model in order to maximize their own profits. Then people like you will have succeeded in completely ruining video games for people like me.

So maybe now do you understand why I might be a little bit passionate about a seemingly minor issue? Because I love video games, have since I was a child. But if they’re all going to turn into microtransaction casinos? NO ■■■■■■■ THANK YOU

  1. You are absolutely welcome here. Please don’t misinterpret disagreement as animosity. I don’t share your position, but you express your feelings coherently and you seem rational - no one wants you to leave (except perhaps yourself).
  2. If you genuinely wish to stop participating in the forum, you don’t need to be banned to do it. I hate even to bring this up, but you seem to be hinting at it very strongly. Sincerely: do you feel like you might have a forum addiction problem?

This is exactly right.

The solution to that, presumably, is to vote with your feet and your wallet. E&P is not your only gaming choice; plenty of other games do not rely on a gacha model. If you wish those games to succeed then I would encourage you to support them. This particular game, however, brings enormous joy to me and to thousands (maybe millions) of other players - I sincerely hope that your dissatisfaction, and the dissatisfaction of others, does not lead to changes that completely ruin this game for us.

Being passionate about this issue is fine. Just recognise that others - like myself - are also passionate. I’ve played dozens, maybe even hundreds of games in my time. None have kept my interest past about six months. I’ve played E&P for almost three years now and I don’t feel like stopping.

Is the game a microtransaction casino? Sure, if you want to put your money into the slot. (You don’t have to, of course, and we shouldn’t pretend there is any pressure to do so unless one suffers from a gambling problem.)

Fundamentally I say vive la difference, different strokes for different folks, and I hope that a variety of different gaming models thrive. But if just one model must triumph and drive out the rest, would I choose the E&P gacha model?


LOL, Brobb and Samantha are awesome. Yeahhhhhh for Zinga fluffers! :muscle::muscle::call_me_hand:

  1. I do want to leave the forum, and
  2. yes, full admission, I do have an addiction to defending my opinions when other people challenge them. Which is why I want to be removed from the forum.

This ain’t my first rodeo. I sign up for a website, forum, whatever, to discuss a game or topic of some kind, get along great for a while, make some friends, share tips and advice, etc… Then inevitably find myself in some sort of heated dispute with another user, usually over something trivial, and I feel compelled to respond to them - even in cases where it’s obvious that they’re just trolling me for their own amusement, because I feel it’s necessary to defend and explain my position.

I don’t just pull opinions out of my rear end, willy nilly, I expect and want them to be challenged, I want to consider every possible opposing viewpoint before deciding on which one to stick with. In the case of video game loot boxes, I’ve heard all the arguments for and against, and decided that I am firmly against them. So yes, when someone challenges my decision, I feel compelled to argue my case. But it gets tiring having to defend a position you believe in when you’re in the presence of many people who don’t.

Which is why I want my forum account to be deleted. On other websites, forums, etc., when I realized I was losing the popularity battle, I was easily able to delete my own account. To stop myself from the temptation of continuing to take part in a subjective argument that no one can ever possibly win. I would like to erase the entire record of my existence from this forum, ever post, every stat, every whatever that is connected to my forum account, so that the forum can go on as if I were never even here. Then I wouldn’t feel the need to defend my views, because - once deleted - it will be as though I never expressed them to begin with.

That sounds almost apocalyptic.

You don’t have to do it. It’s okay to disagree with people, it’s okay to hold an unpopular opinion, and it’s okay to defend that opinion. It needn’t be a drama.

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Nah, not apocalyptic. I’ve done it on several other forums before this one. This is just the first one I’ve found that doesn’t have an option to delete my own account.

My life will go on, I’ll just go back to playing my video games in solitude, in the absence of the rest of the “community” so to speak. Better that way for everyone involved, usually.

I would like to challenge this notion of you deleting your account.
Point: Please don’t
Counterpoint: Please. [edit: Please as in please don’t quit]


Counterpoint: I’m obviously not contributing anything worthwhile to the game or community here anyway. Just ranting because I don’t think a player’s ability to summon certain heroes should be hindered by his or her “luck quotient” or ability to “buy more and more summons until finally getting said hero”. My opinion not only offends those who like the game the way it is, but is also directly opposed to SG’s primary form of income.

And it’s not that I want them to not make money. I don’t believe that anyone should work for free. Nor do I want all the rare heroes to be so easy to pull that everyone gets one. But do we really have to use the gacha model? Isn’t there some kind of middle ground compromise, where SG still makes money, F2P and C2P have a reasonable chance to pull rare heroes, and even the whales get less screwed on their summons, whilst also keeping the so-called “rare” heroes relatively “rare”? And to be honest, they’re not that “rare” anyway, most of the people who raid me have at least 2-3 “rare” heroes on their teams, so there are obviously already enough big spenders out there to cancel out the so-called “rarity” of these heroes (they’re just rare for those of us who can’t afford to do dozens of pulls every month).

I’m not quitting the game, just want to quit the forum, because I’m getting tired of having to defend my point of view against people who can’t seem to understand at all where I’m coming from. And in fairness, I’m sure they’re also getting tired of having to defend their viewpoints against me. I’m perfectly content to going back to my quiet little alliance and my other single player games and never talking to anyone else (aside from my small circle of friends and family) ever again. Because every time I try to “branch out” and meet new people, read the news, see what’s going on in the rest of the world outside of my comfortable little bubble, I am just constantly reminded of why I locked myself in a bubble in the first place.

`oh yes, I am getting there’, TGW, sure we can go there, I support LGBTQI rights passionately, although I am not gay. Ditto animal rights, women’s rights etc.

All this has nothing to do with the topic though. Thing is with you, nothing anyone ever says will be acceptable to you. You want people, at least one person to say ‘Yes, SG owes you something, at least that Avalon hero you want so badly…’. SG owes you nothing. You decided to throw all that money at them, that makes it your responsibility. SG has clearly stated the odds. I don’t feel sorry for you either. Why would I? You go around complaining about all the money you spent and expect sympathy and you don’t get it, but that, of course, is our fault, cause we didn’t learn your post by heart! Are you kidding me? On top of that, you stated quite clearly you wanted to leave (you even asked the devs to do that for you), when you knew perfectly well you would be hanging around for more than 6 months…okay, enough of the never ending contradictions in your posts. I am sure somewhere, somehow this makes all sense to you, and that’s great. The day I bow out, I say thank you to the devs, my alliance and maybe a few people here, and then I leave. Your world works differently, obviously. So good luck with whatever you do. I mean that. Oops, hubby got Guin. Summoned about 5 or 6 times. Oh, and Sir Lancelot. :laughing:

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Seems like this discussion is no longer productive, so I’ll be closing this topic for now.

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