Thoth or kunchen?

I have both thoth and kunchen at 3.70 and have tabbards for 1. I am having difficulty deciding which one to max.
I already have zimkitha aegir ariel Frida joon Santana and Evelyn maxed. A little short on hitters heavy on support.

I also have 2nd Evelyn and atoms at 3.70 and 12 tonics should I use them or wait.
Thanks for any advice.

Kunchen.

Very easy decision that one

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I am also inclined that way but wanted to ask.

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All good, might some different opinions. A fully levelled Kunchen is a great tank and giant pain!

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Kunchen

20 mosquitos

Thoth… who?

Ofc Kunchen

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Khunchen no question about it

Kunchen.

Use him as tank and you wont be changing him from his spot for a long while.

I was happy with Evelyn tank flanked by aegir and ariel and joon and Santana on the wings.
With kunchen tank what would be your setup?

Based on my experience in raids against Kunchen or Thoth-Amun, Kunchen is used much more often in the defence teams, usually in the tank position.

Ironically, Kunchen doesn’t really pose any threat for me, I consider him as a pretty safe tank to attack. Guardian Jackal + Joon/Musashi finish him off before he fires 90% of the time. The trickiest thing about Kunchen is his resist for defence debuffs actually, not his healing/elemental link. You need to plan around that defence resist.

If I lose a raid against Kunchen, it’s always not because of Kunchen, but because of other heroes around him.

Against Thoth-Amun, it’s completely different thing. He is basically a fast attacker that can heal himself. I lost several battles because I actually underestimated him and didn’t pay much attention to him. All those times I lost because Thoth-Amun kept shredding my team and rebuilding his minions.

Thoth-Amun is not very popular so you won’t see him in raids often. People just don’t know how to fight against him and often underestimate him. That’s his only true advantage against Kunchen besides mana speed.

Since I don’t have Kunchen in my roster, I can’t really tell much about raid attack/events/titan benefits of him vs Thoth-Amun.

My Thoth was my first HOTM, and he stayed most of his life on 3/70. Now he is on his 4/75t level and I only use him in war attacks and in my low-level auto-farming team.

In war/raid attacks, he usually survives better than other heroes, but his damage is not that great. I’d say he is mostly a meat shield/arrow sponge, so if you’re lucky, enemy will hit him instead of his more fragile and precious teammates. He is not a heavy hitter, he is like a Die Hard type of guy.

Kunchen has greater versatility (healer + cleanser + debuffer + elemental link), so if you level him up, you’ll use him much more often than Thoth-Amun. With Thoth, you can surprise some of the attackers in raids and war, but that’s all he is capable of.

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I may be biased as I use a Kunchen tank, but if Kunchen is letting the flank shred the attackers then he is doing his job :slight_smile:

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that’s true, but what I meant is that Kunchen relies on his flank/wings, while Thoth-Amun doesn’t get/need that type of synergy.

But you are surely not suggesting putting Thoth as tank, right?

Much as @Perilin already said, the fact that Kunchen stays alive long enough for his flanks and wings to become an issue is what makes him a great tank, and should he go off he just made the attackers life miserable with a full team def debuff.

Kunchen.Keep the tonics for another hero.

Kunchen with +8 emblem most probably can only be killed by a mono team with a good board.

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My Thoth is at 4/75. He hits like a baby, and is a bit disappointing really. Kinda wish I’d ascended my second Khiona instead. If I’d had Kunchen, he would have got the tabards, still don’t have a five star healer

Thanks for all this valuable input.

I’d say Thoth is equally good/bad in any position, he is kinda position-independent. In War with Field Aid, he can be a royal PITA in the Endgame, so maybe he is more suited for wing position in this case.

I’d love to see more teams with Thoth as a tank to practice my tactics against him.

I wouldn’t call any slow hero a “great tank”.

My current understanding of the raid tactics is that most raids can be split into 3 stages, like in chess:

Opening

During this stage, attacker tries to destroy the tank, while defender needs to survive long enough to charge their flanks/wings. Almost no specials are fired during this stage, so most damage is done by tiles and Fast/Very Fast heroes (and Average for the tank), and defence factors are mostly troops, raw defence stats and innate abilities (resistance).

Kunchen plays a good role as a tank in this stage, because he has high defence and resist to defence debuff. But usually tanks do not survive the Opening, so his special is 90% irrelevant because he is Slow.

Thoth could play better here just because he can charge faster and deal more damage before he dies. He has less defence, of course, but if he charges, he is much harder to kill by tiles only.

Middlegame

This is when special abilities of the heroes start to play, and synergy between abilities can be exercised.

Attacker’s goal is to exploit holes in the defence to ghost the tiles to charge heroes and get rid of unwanted tiles, and kill most dangerous defenders.
Defender’s goal is to kill as many dangerous attackers as possible while keeping as many heroes alive as possible.

Slow tanks and flanks, and average wings are able to cast their special during this stage. In attacking team, heroes that attack 3 targets will only have 2/3 (or 3/4 in case of “minor damage”) of their efficiency.

This is when Kunchen shines. He is an ultimate middlegame player, leaving the other team defenceless and healing his team. But he cannot be in the tank position for that, and cannot be at the wings, so only flanks.

Thoth will be active during this stage, in flank and wings position, but his impact is negligible. He has no additional effects of his attack, and doesn’t deal enough damage.

Endgame

Endgame is a stage when most dangerous heroes are out from both teams, leaving one or two heroes on the field.

The goal for the attacker is to just finish off the remaining heroes, while defenders can also stall the game until the time runs out.

During this stage, usually one or two wings of the defender team are alive, and attacker team can also have only one or two heroes available. AOE and 3-target total damage is greatly reduced, as well as the tile damage, because you can only hit the wings with 2 columns of tiles instead of 3.

Kunchen’s efficiency is very limited at this stage, because he is slow, and has very low raw attack. He is not a threat, and the only way he can win is when attacker has no snipers left. So I would not recommend placing Kunchen into wings at all.

Thoth-Amun will have reduced damage at this stage, but he will have much greater survivability than Kunchen if he is left at wings.

Fighting against Thoth-Amun during Endgame is a nightmare.

Conclusion

Best place for Thoth is wing or tank position, best place for Kunchen is a flank or tank.

You are free to apply this analysis to any hero pair you want.

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I like, and agree with a lot of your analysis.

But something else to factor in is that OP has Sartana already maxed in their defensive lineup. So Kunchen or Thoth are going to be the second 5* purple in their bench, and then I think that they would get more use out of K. Unless they plan to stack purple with ariel as a healer.

I think these types of questions are hard to answer because presumably OP also has a slew of 4* that they haven’t listed.

I do use Kunchen for raiding and events so I get plenty of use out of him besides being my defensive tank. And since I bring him more or less everywhere, I’d probably like to bring a proteus or sartana as my second purple, but I don’t have a thoth so you may well be right that he is a dark horse :wink:

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Yes thank you @Damirius for that very nice summary - it made me want to go raiding right away, if only I had flags! And if only it was like what you described instead of a bloody chaos of wrong colour diamonds, ill timed cascades and frustration…

Anyways, I don’t have Thoth so my only experience with him is from def teams I’ve gone up against (I’m usually around 2300-2500 cups). I don’t see him a lot and when he does show he is quickly gone as a flank and a relief to see in wing (as opposed to the heavy hitting snipers). But then again, I might have been lucky.

I’ve never faced a Thoth tank; I suppose it would be pretty much like putting any fast hitter with unimpressive def and health there - a gamble.

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