Things need to change. My take on it and it's suggestions

I’m an optimization engineer (or control engineer, if you want).
I designed optimization procedures and algorithms in every aspect of a few games, from revenue to quality to customer care.
Which basically means that if I didn’t have direct access to data I was at least working with those who had.
I started some 30 years ago when [mainly] coding and optimization weren’t much more than a hobby nobody really deemed profitable and, as a matter of fact, a ground were you could explore the boundaries of what appeared to be futuristic approaches in university departments and definitely opted out when the addiction¹ model affirmed itself.
So around five years ago, more or less, when gacha was not something really present in the western market although I was familiar with it because of my experiences in Japan.
I want to point out that I do not support or condone in any way the current approach - the reason I quit, despite it had turned [very] profitable.

¹ I call this the addiction model rather than the gacha/lootbox model because I’ve seen horrific forms of addiction to gaming well before I was aware gachapon existed.
At the time I wasn’t even aware it was actual addiction.

Spending depth is a definition.
It in no way implies how much you or anyone else has spent to get to a given state, it is a measure of how much you should spend to get to a given state

  • by chain buying
  • without playing
  • somewhat instantly

It is a design parameter.
It defines a ceiling to your IAP and it can be used later on to predict figures when you design a booster pack/expansion (if you know you monetize the x% of your spending depth and have a target for a new expansion you can calculate the spending depth the expansion has to have in order to render your target feasible
target=expansion_depth*x%)
This is very simplified, just to give an idea of what SD is.

Obviously good players and long time players will get to a certain state with a fraction of SD.

This is what I call the optimizator phallacy.
It’s none of a devs business to know who players are² and how they make their money.
Just like an ISO (input state output) realization of a system is not particularly relevant if you are only interested in IO behaviour.
Or like a drug dealer doesn’t care much how you make the money for the next dose (and yeah, drugs can cost quite a bit).

The only things that matter are the numbers.
Those numbers, as far as I can tell based on my experiences and contacts, are reasonable.
Are they correct in E&P?
I don’t know and realistically can’t know :woman_shrugging:t3:
Best practice, in absence of direct metrics, is to use “consolidated” metrics.
But it wouldn’t really make a great difference if the 50% break was at 5% or 20%.
The information we would get would be same: much like in Faroe Islands’ tradition, whale hunt = necessary.

² obviously in a “social” game devs do have interests in knowing their players’ base but for other monetisation policies, namely maximizing their ads revenue.

Let’s be honest: whales are not strictly necessary in any game.
Gaming industry has done great well before gachas.
But the gacha dynamic has brought insane amount of money.
So much money that even very solid companies like Blizzard have opted in.
If gacha (on top of other forms of revenue) brings in so much [extra] money you have to wonder who buys gacha.

Honestly it’s possible that E&P could live some decades without a single in app purchase.
What you seem to forget is that whales aren’t the only limited resource here.
Players are too.
A gamer who happily plays without spending money is not that good for profit maximisation.
You want to squeeze all you can from that player and, if and when he leaves, you want him in the exact same trap in a new game, possibly yours.
Him not spending much or not spending at all in your game is not much better than him spending in another game.
Especially if you are a company that buys successful games and squeezes them.
Let players go wherever they want as long as you can buy their new houses, get the maximum out of them as quickly as you can, rinse and repeat.

Please note that I’m not denying that impression and clicks could suffice to make the game profitable.
And that it can be even more profitable when you factor in a-certain-amount spenders.
But that is the difference between profiting and maximizing profit: sustainable fishing can be profitable, but overfishing is more profitable.
And we all know how much fish reserves depletion is stopping fishing companies from their behaviour, right?

This is false.
And that’s why the 50% break is so important.
Given your players base, it tells you where smaller fish are less relevant.
25% contribute for 50% IAP: ok, let’s make them happy.
Because

  1. that’s where my money comes from mostly
  2. it’s easier to make a small fraction happy than a cohort

It’s sad (at least for me) but it is what it is :woman_shrugging:t3:
You spend less time/money to make more money: your cost function will jubilate.

I see your point of view, but I’ve seen VWYW (vote with your wallet) work.
In my country furs (hello OP :wink:) used to be huge status symbols for women.
Now literally noone wears them any more.

We have [had] Cirque du Soleil because people stopped going to circuses featuring animals.

While it’s not easy, it can be done.
The real problem here is the tiny fraction of players represented by this forum.

I don’t think asking to think about what you are really buying is jumping at someone else’s throat.
I’m not telling you not to spend, nor saying it’s your fault or someone else’s.
I’m just inviting you to consider if what you are buying is actually what you want and the direction it drives the product to.
If you did and you are ok with that we are cool.
If you did and you are not ok with that… I find it somewhat cumbersome, but I’m certainly not hurting you in any way.
Calling for guilt is different from highlighting responsabilieties or a simple cause-effect link.
TBH denying that A causes B is not a great idea if A actually causes B, no matter how you try to do that.

It’s possible.
But in the history of capitalism this has never stopped anyone from depleting a resource.
It’s not about preventing a river from going dry, but being those who get most water by the time it gets dry :woman_shrugging:t3:

Again, I want to point out that I’m simply talking with you and other forums users, I’m not shaming you nor picking on you :wink:
Edit: and sorry for the wall of text :bowing_woman:

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What I’m fed up with is working to get the medallions for the special summons then pulling some garden variety S1 3*

What did I just get from the Tavern? Another Dawa. So I trained some 2* yellows and used her to feed my Dawa up a bunch and raise her special another number.

If the special summons are going to be stocked with cheap heroes, make them ones from S2 and S3.

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@King2 I think you’ll find this post interesting. :wink:

@Xero786 I appreciate your reply to Saros, as do at least 24 other people. I kindly advise this to you: That post you replied to is just the latest example of Saros expressing his dislike for big spenders, in the “memorable” way that Saros chooses to.

So, anyone who visits the forum regularly, can see exactly what kind of player he is. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Sorry for noticing your reply too late.

The idea was to point out that one of the bigger reasons why SG had adopted this particular model which was so brutally expressed during the last year was sadly because they were trying to milk out the big spenders.

The information which @Yhc provided there I couldn’t have, however I am glad that he did. You are welcomed to believe it or not. Seems legit and quite understandable, and it apparently confirms what I wrote above.

In additon, the OP is indeed offering some changes, however such that would benefit him at most , because let’s face it, non-randomized Aether loot at the Alliance tournament will further increase the power gap between spenders and non-spenders thus creating further imbalance.

In short, I don’t actually care anymore, just wanted to point at the root of the problem. Even if at present indeed whales are not that big of a factor as you claim, in the not so faraway past they were, and the result is seen nowadays sadly by everyone.

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So, anyone who visits the forum regularly, can see exactly what kind of player he is.

Browsed some of his recent posts out of curiosity. Seems like a nice guy.

:rofl: Read the nice guy’s comments right from the beginning… just on this thread… people aren’t mentioning him for outside the game life, but for comments in this thread / forum… :rofl:

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Exactly.

@Scarr Perhaps you missed Saros’ first post on this thread?

Sorry, I didn’t intend to go off-topic on this important topic.

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I am amazed to read, there are people on this thread who want rewards for doing NOTHING in the name / benefits of RnG,
while
a player who competes hard, as per the purpose of the game / event is BLAMED for just expecting a better reward
&
branded as a WHALE / Spender who is creating gap viz non -spenders !!

WoW !! Who / what kind of person would want anything for doing nothing !?
I am amazed with such mindset !!

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I find it incredible (in a non-positive way) that people on this thread will miss the points of the OP, and once again, blame the big spenders simply for “allowing” SG to do what they done.

Same old story, different thread. :unamused:

As @Mistress_of_Shadows wisely wrote, all kinds of players are essential.

To be clear, it is good to hear from opposite perspective. However, it is not good for anyone to express themselves in a non-constructive, uncivil/rude manner. Especially repeat offenders. :slightly_smiling_face:

Anyway, what’s the point of Clash of Knights with such poor completion, and ranking rewards? As I’ve written before, no one said “We need a challenge event, but for the whole alliance!” :rofl:

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image

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Yuppers… And i still stand by my comment. Ty @SamMe and as far as the other issue is concerned… That’s why they make king size snickers… :popcorn: :beer:

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:rofl:

20 think a bit harder before you post (not aimed at you @Mistress_of_Shadows)

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Perhaps you missed Saros’ first post on this thread?

All I see is a couple of possibly controversial statements, a bit of sarcasm and some valid points. Nothing particularly offensive there.

I find it incredible (in a non-positive way) that people on this thread will miss the points of the OP

I am amazed to read, there are people on this thread who want rewards for doing NOTHING in the name / benefits of RnG

You are both amazed that people “fail to understand the OP”, yet you both fail to understand points brought by @Saros, me and a few others. To reiterate:

  1. Top players already DO get better rewards. People outside top 1000 do not get guaranteed mats and heroes. Aether rolls are also worse.

  2. Introducing guaranteed Aethers will make the gap between the top and the rest even bigger.
    A lot of people are playing and spending because they want to get to top 100. And this change will make it even harder for them, so they will just quit at some point. Alternatively, SG will drop massive nerfs to allow them to catch up and this will annoy everyone. I understand that top rewards aren’t too appealing given the investments needed, but changing things the way people suggest here definitely won’t help the game.

branded as a WHALE

As much as I hate the term myself and don’t use it, it’s commonly accepted and even OP used it.

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There is a line in V For Vendetta (awesome film, in my Top 5 of all time…but I digress…). Bear with me here.

“Who’s to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror”

We are all responsible for where we are. SGG are more responsible then others but we, the players, have allowed this.

The game is fun and I clearly love it but the state of it (if that’s the correct terminology) is a function of our engagement. We watch the Adverts, so we got more of them. We summon the heroes, so we got more of them. We play in events, so we got more of them.

Supply and demand.

So you want to get noticed you need to follow the lead of said film and unite. No one watches the Adverts, no one summons & no one plays events.

But since we are largely an anonymous gaming community that’s going to be impossible to do. I trust no one who I don’t know so I expect no one to trust me. I say I’ve not watched an advert how do you know? You don’t so I’ll just watch it and say I didn’t.

This game will carry on as it is. SGG will keep to its path…we just have to choose if we want to keep walking on it with them.

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Why shouldn’t they??? They busted their ××× so to me it’s good theres fixed rewards.

Hate to tell ya but the gap will continue to grow. I like the top guys getting fixed rewards. They earned em in crafts alone…

Just silly…

Tbh… I was never a fan of labels. Buuuut i will say this, I was a whale. Now I am simply p2p, but My question is WHO CARES. Personally I am tired of the f2p vs p2p argument. Both made their choice. They also need to accept reality… F2P will never get the advantage p2p get, so stop blaming the other for crap. Nobody told u to be f2p just like nobody forces us to spend. Just silly jealousy imo. " if i can’t have it nobody can" mentality. Or the " cuz I spend I deserve more" mentality.

Things do need to change… But never gonna happen cuz too many ppl are happy being negative and miserable on EVERYTHING SG related. I feel bad for them tbh. While they wage wars and personally insult others over their own unfairness laments they are missing out on the fun that alot of us still have. All players matter. Always have. Stop the whining and find the fun.

My 2 cents :laughing:

:popcorn: :beer:

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I appreciate you taking time to reply in a civil manner.

To be clear, I find it offensive to assign blame to any group of players, in this case whales. And clearly I’m not the only person who finds some of Saros’ posts offensive.

Briefly, I usually use the term “big spenders” instead, as the term whales does cause offence sometimes.

As for your points:

  1. Yes they do. However, simply put the ranking rewards are too randomised. It takes a lot of preparation, time, and effort to rank in any challenge event. If you look at the regular challenge events rewards, it’s all guaranteed loot. Sure they have a guaranteed event avatar, and some EHTs, emblems, however I think the issue comes down to “too much” RNG rewards.

Again, looking at the highest rank rewards for regular challenge events, some ranks also include a guaranteed particular event hero. You don’t have that in the alliance quest. Just to give an example.

In summary, the current rewards - for both completion chests, and overall ranking loot are simply not good enough.

  1. Yes, it would increase the gap. However, the frequency of alliance quests is not confirmed. It looks to be alternating with Ninja Tower, and Tower of Magic. So perhaps every 12 weeks?

~ I don’t want the gap to be wider than it has to be, but at the same time, I want more players to be happy with their rewards, and continue playing…

A genuine question: how do you know of a lot of people are playing and spending to get to top 100?

By top 100, I will assume you refer to top 100 alliance. It is certainly more difficult, but it is not necessary to spend to reach top 100 alliance. Yes, it will take more time than a spender, but - here’s the catch - you need to have started playing years ago. Source: myself and others currently/formerly in top 100 alliances. @Cheds alliance recently reached top 100, and his alliance has a number of f2p.

To be clear, I don’t want even more players to leave. However, I think if someone aiming for top 100 alliance is put off by another player having more LB heroes, they are probably not cut out for that competitive level of play in the first place.

Nothing wrong with not wanting to face heavily LB defences.

I can see where you’re coming from. For some background, I don’t really care for Saros’ posts. Fact: he has personally attacked several players including myself on the forum multiple times.

Anyway, I would just prefer that players who put in the time, effort (and money) to compete feel more rewarded for their efforts.

Ideally, I would prefer that all players are more satisfied with the game, and continue playing. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m never going to place at number 1, number 10 etc in challenge events. However, I prefer to be positive, and I enjoy seeing other players reach/exceed their goals, pull a shiny new hero, get top 1k, 500, 100, etc on any event.

In other words, I am happy for other players to beat up my defence, etc, if they get enjoyment from that.

I don’t feel negatively that someone will get better heroes/more LB heroes. Since I’m vc2p, that’s been the case since day one. :wink:

I think we will probably have to agree to disagree on this topic. :slightly_smiling_face:

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A wise man once said…

It’s funny how there’s just one devil out there, but all the players are here jumping to each other throats arguing about what the devil had for lunch yesterday…

No player is to blame for current state of the game so how about channeling your anger at the ‘real enemy’. This topic started with listing what’s wrong with the game & suggestions how to change it, instead of continuing this way, it became finger pointing at which player is responsible. No player. Period. It’s Zynga’s decision made that if players spent a lot, how about let’s make all their existing purchases irrelevant and ask them to spend even more. A nice company would allow us to trade our duplicate heroes for Aethers first; a nice company would allow us to grind summon coins of all kind for free with our excess energy/resources etc. It’s all their decision that they went to sell everything at ridiculous odds and prices, without even tackling the biggest problems with the game first.

Here we are today, expected to chase a duplicate of Gravemaker as the only way to get his costume, at the odds lower than those of getting the original Gravemaker and without resolution to problem of having unnecessary duplicate Gravemaker taking your roster space. RIDICULOUS.

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This entire thread reminds me of a reddit one where everyone agrees on hating Bezos yet keeps buying $hit from Amazon

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I actually like amazon. Sadly though u are proving my point regarding constant negativity :laughing:

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