The Carol Debate

Reading this thread, I really don’t understand why people are dead set into thinking her bombs only take 3 turns to explode. Her bombs explode when the target is killed, so you can explode the bomb the same turn she plants it. Her bombs don’t need to be uncleansable and such, you just have to make sure you kill the target before 3 turns for maximum effect.
And how do you do that? You use hard hitters like snipers that are more than ready to strike when she plants the bomb. This means that carol has the ability to introduce splash damage to snipers, splash damage that bypasses defensive buffs. If that is not a powerful effect then I don’t know what’s considered powerful
She is fast so she is on par with snipers. You have Marjana and gefjon, just double or triple down the target with the bomb in place, rinse and repeat. This is probably how you play carol’s mechanic
Looks can be deceiving and it seems like she is passive, but she can really be built around hyper offensive support

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Because that’s what it says. Yes, there’s an “or” too. But that’s not a reliable use case.

Look, in your use case you do additional damage to at most 2 targets. And if the tank is dead, at most 1. Why wouldn’t I be better off with a hit 3 hero like Scarlet? She’s going to do more damage in all but the most edge cases. Or take another sniper, kill the target, and use the other sniper that’s charged to do 600+ damage to that one remaining adjacent enemy rather than 300-something.

That the best use case to date is later levels on ninja tower is just sad. Innovative. But still sad.

And she needs to create a minion.

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And apparently people didn’t read the last text too. 'the gift bomb also explodes when the target is defeated

Even if the tank is dead, it still does splash damage, I don’t understand what you mean by only hitting one target if the tank is dead.
Scarlett’s splash is weaker and that is taken before account any defensive buffs while carol does a fixed amount of damage and is way higher than Scarlett’s splash.

Yeah which is why you use a sniper heavy team with carol. She is already dealing 300+ damage (I can imagine fully attack path to be close to 400) to at least two enemies. That’s equivalent to sniper damage but spread out to two.
Here’s a scenario. Say if you have two snipers ready to fire and you want to double down on one target. The first sniper didn’t manage to kill it, leaving the enemy with red health. Then you have to waste your second sniper’s skill just to kill a target that’s half dead, thus wasting it’s special. But if you plant the bomb beforehand, your second sniper can kill and deal the bomb damage to the target’s neighbours, compensating with a chunk of splash damage for killing an almost dead enemy. And because it’s delayed effect, mana cut and her sorcerer’s mana slow is used to buy time for you to charge up your snipers

Yes this is the only thing she needs, one minion is all it takes for her. I don’t care how OP the Devs think she’ll become. But a Christmas hero needs a minion to be a Christmas hero

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If the tank is dead then there’s only one adjacent enemy to “splash” to; you’re killing either the flank or wing and the other gets the bomb. If you have only isolated heroes left, it does nothing.

So, to be clear, your scenario has 3 heroes charged, not two. I’ll still take Scarlet or a 3rd sniper instead, kill the one hero with two and hit the second hero with the third. And I’m ahead compared to your scenario.

The fast snipers that charge at the same speed? They don’t need that. And your scenario is around killing the target, so who cares what the mana is?

Really, this idea doesn’t work out well. You’re simply better off with another hero.

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I don’t really get these statements. If the tank dies alongside the bomb you’re hitting both flanks so it’s two enemies. The bomb doesn’t transfer to another enemy.

As you have already mentioned, I’m using mainly offence so why would I use scarlett for splash? No matter how high her attack is, minor splash damage is still not going to deal a lot to nearby enemies. Carol is more consistent with damage and splash output. And besides Scarlett is very frail and is at the mercy of enemy hitters and needs the luck of her talent to survive anything

You’re also missing the point, I’m talking about damage efficiency here. How can you be certain that your sniper can KO the enemy at high to full health? Even your three sniper example, you used two snipers to kill one enemy and then you use a third sniper to hit another target. You’re basically wasting your second sniper’s skill to KO a half dead enemy. If the next target also has high health, can you also be certain your third sniper could KO it too? Most likely you’re using three snipers just to kill one enemy and damage the other, honestly not worth the hassle
That’s why you have carol’s bomb to convert your second sniper’s attack to high splash damage to soften the nearby enemies’ health. Then your third sniper can go in for a more efficient attack with a higher chance to kill the second enemy

-either-

  • First sniper- damages the target, not killing it
  • Second sniper- kills the target
  • third sniper- targets another enemy. may or may not kill

-or-

  • First sniper- damages the target with gift bomb, not killing it
  • second sniper- kills the target with gift bomb, powerful splash damage is done to nearby enemies
  • third sniper- targets any of the weakened enemies next to gift bomb victim for more efficient damage output. (More likely to kill, even if it doesn’t it’s still going to take a huge dent to its health)

Carol’s role is to plant as many bombs as possible. Even if the snipers are not ready on the same turn, she can just keep planting them and move on to the next target. Snipers can then take this couple of turns to charge their mana to strike anyone with a gift bomb. The mana cut and slow helps out a little

And how do you know it doesn’t work? Have you tried this strat yourself which I highly doubt it

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If the tank is alive, you get 2 enemies. If the tank is dead, you get one.

Is that clear enough?

The target you’re attacking doesn’t matter because it’s not being hurt by Carol. Only the adjacent matter.

As am I. The issue is that taking Carol isn’t free. It replaces another hero. And pretty much any other hero is better.

No. You don’t have a 3rd sniper here. That’s Carol. So that 2nd target only gets her bomb damage. In my scenario (the first one) the second target gets a full sniper hit, as well as any debuffs applied (and if we’re considering only 4 star replacement ms for Carol, then I’d still suggest Scarlet, because of the small splash and the debuff — which you don’t get with Carol).

No, it’s really not. If you’ve planted 2 bombs within 3 turns then you’ve maxed out the board and have to wait for one to detonate or it just delays your damage further.

Really? You’re theorizing here yourself. If you’d used this you’d know ALL of the above. And actually make cogent arguments regarding it.

You even indicated as much in your first post suggesting this:

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What I’m gathering here is that you think the gift bomb does not explode the original target, that is not the case. According to the card, the target carol has attacked explodes with damage as well after 3 turns, including nearby enemies. Which means all three enemies gets blown up simultaneously. If the original target is dead from another attack, then he’s dead already, and the bomb still proceeds to blow up the nearby targets anyways. It is basically a delayed hit three effect.

You keep saying any hero is better. Okay, then what other heroes are better?

Yes exactly, a sniper that can deal extra powerful bomb damage, What’s so bad about it? Doesn’t matter whether you’re using 2 or 3 snipers with carol, she assists with dealing extra damage (decent extra damage)

I’m not theorizing or wild guessing anything, I’m just putting my own cogent spin onto it. Doesn’t matter whether I tried it or not because it all stated on the card.
I did a test run with my carol and a sniper on an overworld map, it did help the sniper do splash damage and that’s all I needed to see. I also tried with my maxed attack emblem Scarlett on a raid, and her splash was terrible, barely half the damage of what a maxed out unemblemed carol would do.
The same could be said to you too. You keep telling yourself this does not work, what makes you sure this would not work? You’re readily dismissing this like it’s worthless and your negative perceptions on carol has twisted this strat
Look, l’m not even asking you to accept or hope to change your opinions on carol. I’m just trying to see how she can be used more effectively. She is a unique hero that has potential to combo extend in many situations. She is unfortunately designed like this, so I make do with what she has.

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Blockquote
You keep saying any hero is better. Okay, then what other heroes are better?

Reuben :wink:

Maybe with Mana Cut on Three, she would have been somewhat ueful.

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No. But if you kill the target, which has been your entire argument, then it does no damage to the dead hero.

I decline to list every single 4 star, 5 star, and a few 3 stars in the game. Because she is that bad. Her stats do not make up for her power (look at Danzaburo for a far better star distribution with a lousy power).

So, to be clear, you attacked me for not trying when you hadn’t. Hypocritical much?

You keep shifting arguments to try and make your scenario work out, but they contradict each other - you don’t get an extra hero because you take Carol. You don’t get to count the bomb damage on the dead target. You don’t get to overwrite bombs and have that be useful.

Ultimately the issue is that by taking Carol, you don’t take another hero that is more effective.

And people with younger rosters aren’t very likely to have Gefjon and Marjana and whatever other red snipers would make this possible.

Hit target with Scarlet. Kill target with sniper 1. Now you’ve done a small amount of damage to target 2, added a debuff, and can still use sniper 2 to hit target 2. The total damage done is VASTLY higher than what you suggest.

If the target you plant the bomb is dead already, move on. It still explodes the nearby enemies. If the nearby target is dead before the bomb exploded on it so it doesn’t receive the bomb damage (because it’s dead already), move on as well. If you’ve killed both nearby targets before you kill the bombed target, no one receives any additional damage. (Because everyone is dead at that point). At least you managed to cut the mana of that bombed target. So your main concern here is that the dead target will not receive the bomb damage, this makes no sense at all

I’m actually curious, list me those 3 stars that’s superior to carol. Because I genuinely want to know

Again with your negative perceptions on this hero. A top 5 health stat amongst all the 4*s, tied with shadereave at 1357 and that’s not even emblemed. She reaches 1570+ hp on maxed health path that always gets paired with attack, making her DOT stronger. And you think her stats are bad?

Because you dismiss everything like you know for sure it does not work, ending it by telling me to use another hero when the main discussion strat is about carol and her uses. I also told you, I did a test run to see if the splash damage worked, that’s all I needed to see. I may not have used carol in real raids, but I can see now for sure my line of thinking is correct and if applied to a real raid scenario, it’s exactly what would happen.

I read this whole paragraph as more contempt from you. You’re basically saying carol is so worthless, she’s makes a 4 against 5 handicap. There’s no argument in that, moving on…

That’s already wrong. Scarlett does attack down, so you’re not even boosting your sniper’s damage output. I legit think you’re mistaking scarlett to Grimm who does defence down.
Really, if you used Grimm as your example from the beginning, you would have destroyed my argument about carol hands down. Heck, even Mist completely invalidates what Carol is trying to do and does it way better than Grimm…why am I doing your work trying to dismiss my own strat?

And once again you’re talking about random other things. The entire discussion is about your specific assertion that the way to use Carol is to bomb a target, then hit with snipers, and that the target was low enough on health that the second sniper mostly wastes their damage.

Which is why I said that her attack will hit one adjacent enemy most of the time. Which you said confused you. And then you talked about it doing damage to the targeted hero, once again ignoring your entire strategy and what this particular discussion is about.

You utterly misread what I said.

I said nothing about defense down. I said a debuff. There are far more debuffs in the game than just defense down.

Your strategy called for a sniper that puts the enemy hero just barely alive (“red health”), such that another sniper would be largely wasted. Scarlet is easily capable of taking out such a hero.

And I’m done with this. Because you’re badly misreading what I’m writing.

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You’re making this so much more complicated that I don’t even know what you talking about half the time. Bottom line, it’s a delayed hit three effect, nothing more nothing less. I’ll leave it here to let you figure it out yourself

What have I misread? I have quote-mine your comments and dissect it line by line

And me too I’m so done with this argument about a supposedly cool strat I came up with. It’s Christmas today, happy holidays.

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You have the patience of a saint. This was very entertaining, thank you.

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Zathrus had a patience of a saint, trying to explain, that if you kill a target with a bomb, there is no scenario, where the bomb will damage 3 heroes… MAXIMUM 2, and in most cases 1.

And Carol needs a minion for herself atleast to be seen as solid… currently, she is underwhelming

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Omg :sweat_smile: a thread dedicated because of my debate. Am I the carol king now, Just like how @Homaclese is the Noor saviour?

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You must be the Carole King. I just felt the earth move under my feet

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This what the card reads, this 312 damage is basically assured damage that you’ll definitely inflict after whatever amount of turns it passes if no cleanse happens (if it gets cleansed, then that’s life, move on). I don’t care how many enemies receive this 312 damage at the end of the day because this is additional damage you may inflict on 1-3 targets. Simple as a delayed hit 3 effect.

Of course there is a problem with this effect which is it can get cleansed very easily. So how do you ensure the bomb explodes fast? You do whatever it takes to explode it on the same turn it’s planted. The fastest way to make sure the bomb explodes is to kill the target with the bomb. So the bomb detonates prematurely to inflict the additional 312 damage to nearby enemies

Trust me, I have the patience to sit here and explain this too.

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Sorry tidy, but zathrus is right. Your arguments are just wrong. Reread his points again and use basic logic

His viewpoints and mine are different. All right then you enter the chat too, what is wrong about my arguments?

The thing is even at fast, she is kinda slow. Takes extra turns most of the time for any damage to be done. The comparison to Scarlett is fair, as she hits 3 but always instantly. It could be interesting to use them together in four star tournaments to set the present off

It’s cool to disagree but I get where @Zathrus is coming from, the little bonus of a mana cut does not make up for her effectively slow speed

With respect to the point of only generally getting extra damage on one additional target, the point is that if the tank is dead, you will only have one adjacent hero.

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