🧪 The Beta Beat (v30) – Hero Balance Updates; Updated Alchemy Lab; Hero Academy; Updated Sand Empire Seasonal Event; Updated Path of Valor; New Season 3 Heroes; Jun/Jul/Aug/Sep HOTM – Sharing the Big Picture on What's Going on in Beta

[BigLordF]

Voidstrike, I’m not trying to put you on the spot but you replied to me stating that I was wrong to consider HA (as currently implemented) as rewarding for experienced and dedicated F2P or C2P players.

I asked what would make you think otherwise and you pointed me at this set of suggestions you had made.

I commented that most of your suggestions were met and some were even surpassed.

Just so we are on the same page, this is what you suggested and ----- what we have right now:

@voidstrike

T1 - Train Common Troops - 4 hours ------ 9 hours
T2 - Train Uncommon Troops - 8 hours ----- 21 hours
T3 - Retrain Rare Heroes (include pool of S2) - 2 days ----- 9 hours (no S2 heroes)
T4 - Train Rare Troops - 3 days ----- 2.5 days
T5 - Train Trainer Heroes - 12 hours ----- 9 hours
T6 - Train Epic Heroes (include pool of S2) - 5 days ----- 2.5 days (no S2 heroes)
T7 - Retrain Epic Heroes (include pool of S2) - 6 days ----- See T6 above
T8 - Train Epic troops from old troops - 7 days ----- 7 days
T9 - Retrain Legendary Heroes - 7 days ------ 7 days + 5% chance of HOTM, S2, or event hero
T10 - Retrain HotM for HotM - 10 days

The only major difference was your last suggestion. I commented that it was unfair to many players who don’t have HOTMs to spare. Your fix is to allow for 2 vanilla 5*s instead.

I’m sorry, and no offense, but this is not a reasonable suggestion. Even if we include all the HOTMs to date (currently at 37), this suggestion would basically give players a 10% chance each month to land Gravemaker, just to name one of the most wanted heroes of this game. And not only a 10% chance, but a free one at that.

As you said, not here nor there though. If this is what you expected out of the HA, that’s your prerogative.

[yelnats_24]

Yes and SG said in the AMA that HA will take care of the need for trading…

Empty promise sadly…

Who would trade their event heroes into S1 heroes via HA?

It got to be HotM for HotM, event for event, to make it as substitition for trading.

[Guvnor]

I think you are missing the key uses of the word “Train” vs “Retrain”

The current HA edition doesn’t do ANYTHING for duplicate heroes except for HA10… So all your duplicate 3* & 4* heroes are worthless…

HA10 also indiscriminately applies a flat 5% chance of getting a random “non-vanilla hero” out… It was requested many times that some “scaling” be applied based on the rarity of the hero you put in (i.e. put in an event 5* hero & get better odds of getting a “non-vanilla” hero out)… So @voidstrike’s comment about his proposed T10 isn’t really that unrealistic.

The other thing to note is that the “non-vanilla” heroes are currently ONLY in HA10… Not in the 3* or 4* realms… which would have made a HUGE difference in the usefulness of those levels to players who DO NOT spend much/any money on the game…

---

If we’re harping on about what we wish HA could have been, this was my “total overhaul & make it useful” suggestion I provided in Beta Feedback:

@Guvnor

If it were up to me, I would ditch the 10 level format and bring out something with just 5 levels:

1. Train 3* troop
2. Train 4* hero
3. Train Trainer hero
4. Teain for CHANCE at 4* Troop
5. Legendary RETRAINING

On top of that there are other major issues which will make very few people want to use it:

1. Cost… The cost currently is massive…
2. Time… The times on like… EVERYTHING is way to long t even bother.
3. Odds … I seriously don’t get why you set the odds so low… I mean seriously… 7 days for a 10% chance at an old HotM? Most of whom nobody actually wants (yes Thoth I’m looking at you…)

So getting specific about what each stage would look like.

Frequent request threads I’ll cover off as being “solved” if you go my way:

• Training/Creating Troops
• When will Season 2 atlantis heroes start being added to our Training Camps?
• Able to train Trainer Heroes

Level 1 → Train 3* Troop

Cost = 100 recruits
Food = 200k food
Time = 30 hours

People have been asking forever for a way to train troops. This an easy way of doing that. Nobody wants to retrain Troops, especially 3* ones. Players just want another way of getting them other than ETT.

Level 2 → Train 4* hero

Cost = 100 recruits
Food = 297k food
Time = 2 days

I set this at the same time and costs as TC20 seeing as that’s (more or less) what you get. I’d love for this to include 4* heroes from Season 1, Season 2 and Challenge Events.
I’d exclude Season 3 for now (add in later) and seasonal events.

The odds can be slightly skewed towards S1 BUT not massively… Maybe:
50% chance for S1
35% chance for S2
15% chance for Challenge Event

Level 3 → Trainer Hero

Cost = 100 recruits
Food = 297k food
Time = 2 days

This is mainly a novelty thing imo but I would possibly use it. I’d love for it to maybe look like this:

• 1* Trainer = 45%
• 2* Trainer = 30%
• 3* Trainer = 20%
• 4* Trainer = 10%
• 5* Trainer = 5%
  Main thing is I’d love is the ability to train all levels of Trainer Hero.

Level 4 → Chance of Training 4* Troop

Cost = 150 recruits
Food = 350k food
Time = 2.5 days

I think the best way of setting up the odds are to mimic the Epic Troop Portal.

• 3* troop = 90%
• 4* Troop = 10%

This again fills the player option of a new way of getting troops. While “retraining” could work I like the idea of actually giving ALL players a new way of getting the missing 4* troop.

Level 5 → RETRAINING Legendary Hero

Cost = 200 recruits
Food = 400k food
Time = 4 days

I’d love for Event heroes to be added into this portal too as well as the Season 2 heroes & the old HotM. Maybe something like this:

• Season 1 Legendary = 40%
• Season 2 Legendary = 30%
• Old HotM = 20%
• Event Hero = 10%

Biggest thing is to make it so you CAN’T get out what you put in.

---

But all of those type things are just hopes and dreams at this point.

[yelnats_24]

@Guvnor

10%

5% or 10%???

[Guvnor]

■■■■ = ■■■■

But yes; 5% is the correct number

[BigLordF]

Guv, I’m not sure I get your point about “training” and “retraining”. The only time in Voidstrike’s suggestion that I interchanged the two was about the suggested:

T6 - Train Epic Heroes (include pool of S2) - 5 days
T7 - Retrain Epic Heroes (include pool of S2) - 6 days

I don’t see how “retraining an epic hero” for 6 days is better than “training an epic hero” for 5 days. Sure, you avoid getting the same hero, but you also spend an extra day.

But more importantly I don’t see how either of them is better than the current HA version that allows training of Epic Heroes in 2.5 days. Would you prefer putting in a Chao for any non-Chao Epic hero in 6 days over putting in recruits for a chance of an Epic hero in 2.5 days, even at the risk of getting a Chao?

I agree your duplicate 3 and 4*s are worthless but they were worthless despite of HA, not because of it. And if I’m being honest, I find your scenario very intriguing. It seems to me you’re talking about a player with at least 18 month of continuous play (the time to upgrade HA), who has a roster full of bad Epic heroes but lacks all or almost all the good ones, and now that the player finally managed to put HA in use and has a new resource to get Epic heroes in 2.5 days, the player is upset he/she cannot use the Epic dupes instead of recruits. I think there has to be something I’m missing here.

And back on the proposal, without qualifying it, I don’t see how it is realistic to get 100% chance at a HOTM and almost 3% chance at a specific HOTM every 10 days at the cost of a bad HOTM, and some free resources. With 36 such shots a year, how many of the 36 past HOTMs would a person get?

I like your proposal more as I think it’s more balanced though your last level is very optimistic to me. 80 chances/year at a 5* hero, despite the weighted chances is better than any portal IMO (without doing the math).

My idea of HA, since we’re sharing was a completely different direction. I wanted HA to be a skill and mana speed improvement tool, instead of the trading center it is. In other words you could take for example Azlar through one level of training and turn him into an average mana Azlar, put him through another level and add dispel as a new skill, put him through another and increase his direct damage by 50%, put him through another and change his element to Ice. With enough dedication and imagination, you could turn Azlar into a very fast Ice hero that deals 250% direct damage to all and dispels all ailments, in other words, a much better Vela if you lack her.

I find the “create your own hero” much more intriguing. Imagine everyone playing with a personalized roster.

[FrenziedEye]

@BigLordF

My idea of HA, since we’re sharing was a completely different direction. I wanted HA to be a skill and mana speed improvement tool, instead of the trading center it is. In other words you could take for example Azlar through one level of training and turn him into an average mana Azlar, put him through another level and add dispel as a new skill, put him through another and increase his direct damage by 50%, put him through another and change his element to Ice. With enough dedication and imagination, you could turn Azlar into a very fast Ice hero that deals 250% direct damage to all and dispels all ailments, in other words, a much better Vela if you lack her.

Would’ve been epic

It makes more sense intuitively as well - Academy means training heroes to become better versions of themselves, not Azlar randomly turning into Evelyn lol

[BigLordF]

Not only that, but imagine how better the game experience would be. Every raid you made you’d need to study your opponent in detail because two people with identical heroes in name would have completely different skills and talents. Imagine Kunchen with damage, Thorne with DoT, or Hel at fast mana.

Imagine that, and then compare it to facing GM-Tel-Vel 9 out of 10 times. I’m at the point now when I reroll whenever I face a different team because I’m too lazy to change my team for just one matchup.

[FrenziedEye]

Yeah, it’d be like

woah! This AVERAGE Azlar snipes AND does DOT. His power level is above 9000!!

[BigLordF]

Thay would definitely take a couple years.

But it’d still be faster than the chances of getting a GM from the current HA.

[Zathrus]

@BigLordF

I don’t see how “retraining an epic hero” for 6 days is better than “training an epic hero” for 5 days

Because the entire point of @voidstrike ‘s post was to be able to get access to S2 heroes.

If you can build HA do you SERIOUSLY think there’s any need to train classic 3 or 4 star heroes? AT ALL?

But F2P and C2P players may very well be missing S2 heroes, so that would have made those levels actually, you know, useful.

@BigLordF

I agree your duplicate 3 and 4*s are worthless but they were worthless despite of HA

And it was at least implied by SGG that HA was going to solve that. As well as for 5*. It’s failed to do so for ANY of them.

@BigLordF

I don’t see how it is realistic to get 100% chance at a HOTM and almost 3% chance at a specific HOTM every 10 days at the cost of a bad HOTM, and some free resources.

That pool of HotMs is ever growing, and if you make the costs high enough (like maxed food storage kind of high) then it absolutely impacts your ability to do other things and becomes a real trade off. As an aside, I’d actually recommend limiting this to HotM that are FULLY unavailable from AR, which would actually cut the number down significantly to start. It’s grow eventually, but would also give difference between this and ToL.

The real downside is that this particular thing is. less F2P friendly in a way because spenders are more likely to have spare HotM/event/seasonal heroes. But that’s already true, and if a F2P does happen to get a special hero from retraining then at least this would give them an option to make it one they want rather than Thoth.

[BigLordF]

@Zathrus

@BigLordF

I don’t see how “retraining an epic hero” for 6 days is better than “training an epic hero” for 5 days

Because the entire point of @voidstrike ‘s post was to be able to get access to S2 heroes.

Perhaps that was his point but I think you missed my point. If the options are:

1. Train = Convert some recruits and resources into an Epic hero in 5 days
2. Retrain = Convert an epic hero and resources into an Epic hero in 6 days

Which option do you think is better if both draw from the same exact pool?

@Zathrus

@BigLordF

I agree your duplicate 3 and 4*s are worthless but they were worthless despite of HA

And it was at least implied by SGG that HA was going to solve that. As well as for 5*. It’s failed to do so for ANY of them.

I thought the current Level 10 of HA literally exchanges your legendary 5* heroes for a new random one, with a 5% chance of a past HOTM, S2, or Event hero.
So you’re half right.

@Zathrus

@BigLordF

I don’t see how it is realistic to get 100% chance at a HOTM and almost 3% chance at a specific HOTM every 10 days at the cost of a bad HOTM, and some free resources.

That pool of HotMs is ever growing, and if you make the costs high enough (like maxed food storage kind of high) then it absolutely impacts your ability to do other things and becomes a real trade off. As an aside, I’d actually recommend limiting this to HotM that are FULLY unavailable from AR, which would actually cut the number down significantly to start. It’s grow eventually, but would also give difference between this and ToL.

There are only 37 HOTM, including Raffaele, the current HOTM. Using one HOTM to get one of the other 36 will give your basically a 3% chance every 10 days to get a specific HOTM. Decreasing the number as you suggest would increase the chances even more. And we are talking about specific HOTMs. In other words, such suggestion means that you’d have around 20% chance for a Gravemaker every month for example without spending a dime, at a time when no portal gives you a 20% chance for A legendary hero, not a specific hero, just A hero.

I know it’s wishful thinking but let’s keep it a little grounded.

@Zathrus

The real downside is that this particular thing is. less F2P friendly in a way because spenders are more likely to have spare HotM/event/seasonal heroes. But that’s already true, and if a F2P does happen to get a special hero from retraining then at least this would give them an option to make it one they want rather than Thoth.

True, but once they turned Thoth into Onatel they’d be done while spenders would get anyone else worth getting. How would this affect the gap between spenders and the rest?
What about the gap between rookies who are months away from upgrading to HA
10 and the rest? Heck, what about the gap between F2P and C2P?

[TGW]

@BigLordF

@Zathrus

@BigLordF

I don’t see how “retraining an epic hero” for 6 days is better than “training an epic hero” for 5 days

Because the entire point of @voidstrike ‘s post was to be able to get access to S2 heroes.

Perhaps that was his point but I think you missed my point. If the options are:

1. Train = Convert some recruits and resources into an Epic hero in 5 days
2. Retrain = Convert an epic hero and resources into an Epic hero in 6 days

Which option do you think is better if both draw from the same exact pool?

I’m a bit lost here, as I’m still trying to figure out how all of this stuff works… but basically, if the pool only consists of season one 4* heroes, I have zero interest in either option. I don’t think anyone who has been playing this game for long enough to be able to build HA has any need at all for more vanilla 4s. Throw event and S2 heroes into the mix? Then yeah… I’d gladly trade my 5th or 6th Li Xiu or Boldtusk for a Wilbur or Proteus. Any day. Even if it’s just a “chance” and I get to keep throwing back the bad fish until I get a good fish. But if the pool is only full of “bad” fish, what’s the point? (By bad fish I mean, fish that I already have plenty of - not saying that BT et al. are bad heroes, many of them are quite good - just that I already get enough of them from summons and TC20).

As for the troop training? I think it’s awesome that they finally added a way to train troops. What’s not so awesome is how long it takes to train them. Someone (IIRC it was @zephyr1?) calculated that it would take something like 9 years to fully level up a single rainbow set of 4* troops at those current levels…? That seems a little ridiculous to me.

@BigLordF

There are only 37 HOTM, including Raffaele, the current HOTM. Using one HOTM to get one of the other 36 will give your basically a 3% chance every 10 days to get a specific HOTM. Decreasing the number as you suggest would increase the chances even more. And we are talking about specific HOTMs. In other words, such suggestion means that you’d have around 20% chance for a Gravemaker every month for example without spending a dime, at a time when no portal gives you a 20% chance for A legendary hero, not a specific hero, just A hero.

I know it’s wishful thinking but let’s keep it a little grounded.

Wasn’t my suggestion, but let’s take a look at that. Even if we take your “so called worst case scenario” into consideration. 20% chance to turn a random 5* hero into a Gravemaker in one month’s time. For free. The audacity, right? The audacity that all someone would have to do to get a free Gravemaker is to play the game for long enough to get a SH level 25, build a Hero Academy, pull a 5* hero from TC20, then retrain it over and over again for a mere 5 more months in order to have a decent chance to turn it into a Gravemaker. What fresh hell you say! At that rate, practically everyone who plays this game for 2 years will have a single Gravemaker on their rosters! And then the entire game will be ruined. Utterly ruined.

So then tell me… what is a more appropriate level of time that one should have to grind in order to have a reasonable chance at one decent hero without spending thousands of dollars? 5 years? 10?

[jkdevore]

@Guvnor

5* Trainer = 5%

Huh, there are 5* trainers? I’ve never seen 1 on the 10 months I’ve been playing and most of you would consider me a whale

[Guvnor]

Dunno;

if there aren’t they could easily be created. If not then the % could easily be redistributed to the 4* trainers.

[TGW]

I’ve been playing for 21 months. Never seen a 5* trainer hero. But… as Guvnor says…

@Guvnor

if there aren’t they could easily be created.

[BigLordF]

@TGW

@BigLordF

@Zathrus

@BigLordF

I don’t see how “retraining an epic hero” for 6 days is better than “training an epic hero” for 5 days

Because the entire point of @voidstrike ‘s post was to be able to get access to S2 heroes.

Perhaps that was his point but I think you missed my point. If the options are:

1. Train = Convert some recruits and resources into an Epic hero in 5 days
2. Retrain = Convert an epic hero and resources into an Epic hero in 6 days

Which option do you think is better if both draw from the same exact pool?

I’m a bit lost here, as I’m still trying to figure out how all of this stuff works… but basically, if the pool only consists of season one 4* heroes, I have zero interest in either option. I don’t think anyone who has been playing this game for long enough to be able to build HA has any need at all for more vanilla 4s. Throw event and S2 heroes into the mix? Then yeah… I’d gladly trade my 5th or 6th Li Xiu or Boldtusk for a Wilbur or Proteus. Any day. Even if it’s just a “chance” and I get to keep throwing back the bad fish until I get a good fish. But if the pool is only full of “bad” fish, what’s the point? (By bad fish I mean, fish that I already have plenty of - not saying that BT et al. are bad heroes, many of them are quite good - just that I already get enough of them from summons and TC20).

As for the troop training? I think it’s awesome that they finally added a way to train troops. What’s not so awesome is how long it takes to train them. Someone (IIRC it was @zephyr1?) calculated that it would take something like 9 years to fully level up a single rainbow set of 4* troops at those current levels…? That seems a little ridiculous to me.

That’s fair but I don’t see what it has to do with my point. I’m not arguing that it’s OK for HA not to include S2 Epic heroes. I’m simply questioning the point of two different methods that deliver the exact same thing.

Simply put, if I could get a hero by sacrificing 100 recruits and 5 days, or by sacrificing a dupe Chao and 6 days, I would pick recruits every time. That’s it. If others feel differently, feel free to discuss but let’s not miss the forest for the trees.

@TGW

@BigLordF

There are only 37 HOTM, including Raffaele, the current HOTM. Using one HOTM to get one of the other 36 will give your basically a 3% chance every 10 days to get a specific HOTM. Decreasing the number as you suggest would increase the chances even more. And we are talking about specific HOTMs. In other words, such suggestion means that you’d have around 20% chance for a Gravemaker every month for example without spending a dime, at a time when no portal gives you a 20% chance for A legendary hero, not a specific hero, just A hero.

I know it’s wishful thinking but let’s keep it a little grounded.

Wasn’t my suggestion, but let’s take a look at that. Even if we take your “so called worst case scenario” into consideration. 20% chance to turn a random 5* hero into a Gravemaker in one month’s time. For free. The audacity, right? The audacity that all someone would have to do to get a free Gravemaker is to play the game for long enough to get a SH level 25, build a Hero Academy, pull a 5* hero from TC20, then retrain it over and over again for a mere 5 more months in order to have a decent chance to turn it into a Gravemaker. What fresh hell you say! At that rate, practically everyone who plays this game for 2 years will have a single Gravemaker on their rosters! And then the entire game will be ruined. Utterly ruined.

So then tell me… what is a more appropriate level of time that one should have to grind in order to have a reasonable chance at one decent hero without spending thousands of dollars? 5 years? 10?

That’s a hell of a strawman you pulled there. making it sound like this was all about a Gravemaker and conveniently “forgetting” the other 14 retrains.

But to play along, yes,someone could argue that the game is broken if you end up with Gravemaker, Hel, Alberich, Zeline, Delilah, Drake, Alasie, Zim, Evelyn, Frida and Kunchen within a few months without spending a dime. I doubt even the biggest spender has ever achieved this.

But just so others don’t think I’m the bad guy here, I propose the game should reward players with a free HOTM every time they move up one level as a reward for their dedication to the game, and their hard work for completing every mission, quest, challenge event, and farming constantly, using every flag and every flask and even purchasing WE refills. I mean, would the game be utterly ruined if I got a Gravemaker after playing for 18 months and reaching level 70?

If you disagree with my suggestion, then tell me… what is a more appropriate level of time that one should have to grind in order to have a reasonable chance at one decent hero without spending thousands of dollars? 5 years? 10?

[Zathrus]

@BigLordF

Perhaps that was his point but I think you missed my point. If the options are:

1. Train = Convert some recruits and resources into an Epic hero in 5 days
2. Retrain = Convert an epic hero and resources into an Epic hero in 6 days

Except that’s a false dichotomy. You’ve changed the retrain into something completely different and are then asking which is better.

The answer is they’re both equally worthless in your scenario.

@BigLordF

I thought the current Level 10 of HA literally exchanges your legendary 5* heroes for a new random one, with a 5% chance of a past HOTM, S2, or Event hero.
So you’re half right.

No, I’m 95% right if you want to play this game, because getting a S1 hero isn’t what was asked for. It was, very specifically, how to get old HotMs. And a 5% chance per week with heavy resource expenditure fits that requirement by… 5%. At best.

Given that it will happily turn spare S2/event/etc heroes into a S1 hero (and only forum goers knobetter), it actually doesn’t really meet the 5% level either.

@BigLordF

In other words, such suggestion means that you’d have around 20% chance for a Gravemaker every month for example without spending a dime, at a time when no portal gives you a 20% chance for A legendary hero, not a specific hero, just A hero.

Again, a false dichotomy. You’re ignoring that it requires expending a 5*, that it requires over a year of play and building (2+ years of F2P), and a huge amount of resources. All of which no portal requires either.

And how is it the player’s fault that no other hero has rivaled GM, Hel, or Athena in their particular capacities? But those heroes are essentially forever unavailable to F2P. Unless you think spinning the HA10 wheel for 90 years to have a 50/50 shot at GM is reasonable.

Frankly, I’d actually propose something even more radical. After 2 years (aka, no longer in AR portal), the HotMs would become classic heroes and available in ALL the same ways as any other classic hero. That would solve several issues, and actually make the 5% chance for a non classic hero decent.

[TheBeastxGreat]

Beta V31 opened …

[Rafal]

2 yeasrs in the game
71 lvl
almost F2P
I have 56 S1 heroes
0 S2
0 S3
5 HOTM (2 Thot-Amun)
I was waiting for HA, becouse it is boring, boring, boring without new heroes
I should keep playing?
it will still be boring
I don"t need more events with the same Hero roster
why I can’t have some fun after 3 years of playing in next year?