🍚 Talents: defense points or health points?

So?

Increases health by 36 points

OR

Increases defense by 18 points

and why?

you can vote too :wink:

  • Increases health by 36 points
  • Increases defense by 18 points

0 voters

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Of course it depends on the hero, but I would raise defense FIRST and then health.

Anyway, the choice must be done on two options at the same time, I guess it will take some time before we figure out the “best” options for each hero.

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i will need health points for my RedHood :stuck_out_tongue: … when maxed :confused:

for the foxies to have bigger health and to heal more :fox_face:

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There is no answer, it totally depends on the hero and what role you give him.

then let me rephrase which one upping will most likely keep him alive… on the same hero…

1 defense point > 2 health points

OR

1 defense point < 2 health points

I initially though to only upgrade defence, but notice soon after that that way heroes with DoT damage that bypass defence (aka Grave, Victor and so on…) would be even more lethal.

So i say half and half.

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Thinking of it…

defense can be buffed/debuffed… Health cant… hmmm

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You can run the numbers for any particular hero, given that the damage formula is known. For typical heroes, +1 defense is a bit better than +2 hp. There should be a crossover point at some defense level—consider that a defense of 1500 but HP of 1 would be a weak hero.

Keep in mind that DoT bypasses Défense, though, and many healers restore a % of max HP. So that tilts the decision towards a more balanced def/HP path.

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I think you put your finger on it @_John_Doe, for minion casters such as your Red Hood health may be a better choice since the minions’ health is based on the caster’s health.

For heroes with high health but low defense it may be best to bring the defense up based on the way the damage calculation works where the attack/defense difference is key for damage (Gormek is the one I am thinking of here, I am not thinking of putting emblems on him but he is an excellent candidate for increased defense).

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Health increase would be the first choice for riposte heroes either, who cause the more riposte damage, the lower their defense is. Also health increase means more HP gained when healed for x % of their health. So, tricky subject…

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All it comes down to their direct damage: if the damage reduction due to the added DEF would surpass 36 hp then is a double win for DEF.

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6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

1 def = 2 health from previous calculations.

I’d side with the health though because of attacks that bypass defense and getting more health from % heals.

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It depends on the hero a little, but overall i would pick defense. I would worry that increasing a heroes health points w/o also increasing their defense points could actually be a liability in war defense, since how many points the opposing team gets per hit depends only on your heroes health points

I would perhaps choose health over defense for some heroes I could never imagine using on a defense team

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For heroes who are going to be in a defense team, almost certainly +defense:

  • Tile damage is a large part of the damage that heroes take in raids, and it doesn’t bypass defense
  • The defense buff for defenders amplifies that +18 def to +21.6 def. There’s no commensurate health buff, so there’s actually a net benefit to using +def here

For heroes on offense, it’s less clear, since you only get hit with a slash about every 3 turns, and you’re never “stacked” against by any attack from the defense. Since offenses receive fewer–but on average stronger–hits, +health becomes more valuable.

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I’ve read through the Damage Formula thread and think I “get” how that works (although some of the most recent posts make it seem like the formula may have changed…).

But would you walk through an example of “running the numbers” for how you determine +1 DEF is a bit better than +2 HP? Say Rigard with 595, 673, 1166…

Thanks!

Riposte heroes (+HP) - more effective with lower def

Low def heroes (+HP) - doesnt help since most of these heroes are high in offense or HP. That little def bonus wont help much.

High def heroes (+DEF) - these guys are already tough, just make them tougher

High HP heroes (+HP) - needless to say when they are combined with or already are good healers

Alot of healing goes by % so if a hero has high HP it would be best to maximize it (I am not talking about HoT)

My term for most of these talents are to maximize their strengths. Making something weak to becoming mediocre is still mediocre. Making something good to great is a better option in my opinion. Jackal for example, increase offense or defense? His low defense aint gonna make much of a difference by giving him 18 def points. I would just give him the 18 off points and make him an even better attacker.

Just my 2 cents. :wink:

4 Likes

Remember that troops are giving you bonus to HP nad Def. And Def bonus is bigger with using crit troops, mana troops don’t give HP bonus at all, so all troops favor defence over health.

I don’t agree that you don’t have HP buff. Healing X% is similar to defence buff, but it is permanent. And everyone use healers, not everyone use defence buffers.

Look at the graph from the topic Damage Calculation
If you consider a situation when attack = defense, you will recievie ~100 dmg.
If you consider a situation when the attack is twice as large as the defense, you will recievie ~250 dmg.
If you consider a situation when the defence is twice as large as the attack, you will recieve ~40 dmg.

It shows that the attack/defence ratio if the most important, and shows that the value of defence is about 2.5 of HP point.

Doing this research i vote for defence in all cases except riposte. And 18 defence is better than 15 attack :wink:

1 Like

Many of you told that heal benefit more than defence from % healing.
Immagine an hero that benefit the more from def instead of heal in order to survive.
Healing that hero from 20% into 62% heal will garant him to survive still more with the def bonus respect to the heal bonus (sorry for my eanglish, i hope u can get what i means).
In other words % healing doesnt pref the more heal but only the best survive. So if heal is better than def that heal would be better for healing; instead def will be.

Only the DoT the real support of increasing heal over defence.

I don’t know if for survive 2,5 heal are equal to 1 def or if it depends by the heal/def. but we should consider only this and the DoT and not the % healing.
Correct me please where i made mistake

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Hey everyone, if you decided to use emblems on the hero Vivica would you pick defense or health. (Hypothetically, lets say you’ll never use her on war defense)

Base Defense stat is 694.
Base Health is 1328.
Defense is 52.25% of the Health Stat.

She heals 44% so she’d recover even more HP than usual.

She buffs Def 63% so she’d get more bonus defense points than usual.

Talent is resisting negative mana effects, so could resist Proteus (who gives DOT, so more health is better). She called also resist Hel & I think Merlin (who hit directly w/o DOT so more Def is better)

Slippery slope it seems

I did some calculations on this topic, and I disagree with a lot that has been written in this topic.

There seems to be one common misconception about how an increase of defense works: Defense multipliers (like the 20% bonus for defenders or the bonus that troops give) do not increase the effectiveness of a fixed defense bonus.

That is because of the way damage is calculated: (Atk/Def)^1.35

The higher your Def already is, the lower the gain you get from increasing it further.

I don’t want to bore you with calculations and jump straight to the results. There is always a certain amount of HP needed, to stay alive long enough to have a benefit from the damage reduction that comes from the +18 Def bonus compared to +36 HP bonus. That number is the same no matter if Def boni are applied, and no matter how strong the Atk value of the attacker is.

A few values:
500 Def -> 736 HP
600 Def -> 884 HP
700 Def -> 1032 HP
800 Def -> 1181 HP
900 Def -> 1329 HP

So for example if your hero has a base Def of 700, then he will benefit from an increase of +18 Def if his max. HP is at least 1032.

Looking at those numbers, you can see that +18 Def is almost always better than +36 HP - when considering normal attacks only. It’s the Def-ignoring DoTs that are shifting things towards HP a bit. Some if you are just slightly above the minimum HP value, taking the HP bonus might still be better than the Def bonus. Depending on how often you face DoT enemies.

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