You are mixing up something here.
You are the beliver and Brobb uses a rational approach!
You are mixing up something here.
You are the beliver and Brobb uses a rational approach!
No. No, they are not. Lots of people have deposited their experience and some documented it as well, while trying to statistically give a sound arguement about the rigged boards but the conclusion is simple. Are the boards random? Not really.
But why would SG rig the boards and make the game unfun for players?
Answer: To make people spend money to get chances at getting stronger heroes.
But why… Let me stop you there!
Answer: Like casinos have customers who throw money at them, SG and this game is the same thing,
as in the same principle. Casinos never lose. The house always wins. But to suggest that a company that has made tens of millions from a game like this, cannot invest in a technical programming tool that can “manipulate” RNG in order to ensure players are hooked and pressured to spend money is dishonest to say the least.
Are the boards rigged under certain conditions? Of course they are.
Will the company admit that they are rigging them? Of course they are NOT.
Will they demand huge amounts of data research to reject confirmation bias and admit rng manipulation? Of course they will.
Will anyone invest the time and/or money that is required to do that? No, why would they.
Is it frustrating? Of course it is.
But much like the casino will deny access to players that are very good (blackjack for example), cause they believe if you have a good memory and can cardcount, that is cheating!!!
How dare you take money form the casino!!! The casino takes form you.
And the beauty with an online casino is that digital gambling is “easily” programmed. Cause it does not depend on physics. The die can be loaded much more easily, with the press of a button so to speak.
Once again I apologise for the length of the post but this needs to be said again and again.
Are the tiles rigged? YES THEY ARE RIGGED!!!
I would love to see that documents… And the data
Actually your totally wrong not only in your post but also in the abo e comment.
Cardcounting is neither considered cheating nor is it illegal to count cards when playing in a casino.
What is illegal in casinos is any for of aid, device and/or the use of other persons to help/assist in counting cards.
Anyone who thinks counting cards is considered cheating has no idea that they are talking about.
All the documented experiences and statistically sound arguments I’ve found and read in this forum have said yes to your question: Color Stacking Stats, Color Stacking and Raids, Color Stacking Fairness Project, Color Stacking: The Odds
I should mention that one of the players who made two of the above studies, has also documented a streak of bad boards here: Everybody Gets Bad Boards
I can relate to the frustration of boards, but everything I have seen from fellow players shows me there’s no rigging going on. Just RNG doing its thing.
You’re ultimately entitled to believe what you want to believe. I have read both sides of the argument though, and frankly not once have I seen anyone present any data or studies for why boards are not random.
But please keep your posts within the #forum-rules. I removed the statements that were name-calling groups of players and users.
Sorry, I can’t let this slide …
You are merely making a bald statement here but, like everyone else, you don’t (or can’t) back it up.
There is nothing to indicate that they HAVE to rig the boards to make people spend money. In fact, people spending money has nothing to do with the state of the boards and everything to do with what heroes their opponents have.
I see. Because they CAN it logically follows that they MUST.
Of course they are? Why? because you say so? Again, demonstrate this for me.
The company is not the one demanding the huge amounts of data. They probably couldn’t care less about it. It is your FELLOW PLAYERS demanding the data, because there ALREADY EXISTS on this forum data that supports the claim that the boards are NOT manipulated – because people DID invest the time and/or money that is required for that. But not you! Oh GOD not you!
Oh wait, that data is obviously biased because it contradicts your beliefs.
Umm, how exactly do good players take money from SGG?
Say it as often as you like, but like the boy who cries wolf when wolves are extinct you will be dismissed. Actually produce a wolf (ie data) and then I will listen.
The biggest issue here is a fundamental lack of understanding of “random”.
I am going to only reply to this cause it touches almost everything I commented on.
Thank you for proving me right by accepting what I typed as the logical thing to be.
Our only difference in opinion, it seems, fall down to us simply taking a different stance in this topic.
You see me as a “boy who cries wolf” with no wolf present, maybe even a frustrated noob that looks to blame someone for their bad boards and losses.
I see you as a person who just accepted the fact “…to suggest that a company that has made tens of millions from a game like this, cannot invest in a technical programming tool that can “manipulate” RNG in order to ensure players are hooked and pressured to spend money…”,
but chooses to believe in “I see. Because they CAN it logically follows that they MUST.”
You just said that techinically they can do what I, lets say, accuse them off but ultimately choose NOT to.
Cause what company would do that when it can make them profit? Right?
So I am simply a ranting, disgruntled player that vents their frustration in the forums while other statisticians have already disproven my point of view.
Statistician I may be not. But a Civil Engineer I am by degree. And all I see is a logically sound framework, statically strong, that programming-wise, is not far fetched and it makes economic sense. So…Yeah…
As for the data, all I know is that people keep asking for thousands of samples in order to suggest a conclussive arguement. And honestly, call me biased, stuborn or whatever, I don’t think anyone should waste their time unless they really love that kind of work.
" Umm, how exactly do good players take money from SGG?"
They don’t. Plain and simple. That’s the beauty of this game’s gambling mechanics. You never win!!!
As for the definition of random or the understanding of it… Hmmmmm…
P.S. In the end just take what I write whatever way you like. “Frustrated noob, confirmation bias or whatever or boy that cries wolf”.
You are correct, Aris, it just boils down to faith. Some have faith that the company has their best interests at heart (despite all evidence to the contrary) and never lies.
But that’s not reality. In reality, the company is trying to make as much money for as little work as possible. That’s what companies do.
Since their product is the RNG, it should be transparent. That’s the bottom line.
Oh Lord RNGesus please strike the heathen unbelievers down with thy mighty rigged boards.
I think it’s fair to say that there’s a space in between for the company to both have its own interests at heart AND tell the truth about the game mechanics.
It appears to be possible make plenty of money without manipulating either boards or summons
And I do like this idea, but I feel like it would have to be independently verified or those who doubt the company would still distrust the result.
True, there are infinite possibilities, and only one path to truth.
I just don’t understand why anyone would argue against transparency.
Speaking to others: there is no valid economic argument, since they didn’t develop the RNG they use, although they definitely modify it (to avoid weird starting boards, for example). It’s not a matter of proprietary tech or anything like that.
The only reason not to release the info is to hide their modifications to it.
I feel there is a big confusing misunderstanding between the concept of what an RNG does and the programming of it weather it be boards or summons or rewards.
The RNG itself is nothing more than a simple plain tool that provides the foundation of the mechanics that makes the wheel turn, it has no thought process or memory and can’t be told what to do other than to start, it then stops where ever it ends thus why isn’t a random tool. Most games these days use one and these thought processes that players feel of being cheated or the game being rigged are also the exact same on every single one of those games.
It’s what an RNG does to the mind and there is no way to change that.
Now the question here then becomes not one to do with the RNG because every single response to do with an RNG is that it is totally random and not manipulated which is totally true.
So the next obvious question then should be “then how does it work” and the answer is actually far more simple than most people may think and in fact we here on E&P have actually been provided with the answer in our faces but don’t see it as being the questionable factor that should be the area in question.
Look at an RNG atm as nothing more than your suitcase, simple plain empty box and you can choose to put inside it anything you want thus there is a suit case with heroes, one with rewards and another with tiles. It really makes NO difference what so ever to the that suitcase what you put inside it as it isn’t bias at all. It does control the size, the colour, the importance of the item or how many different items you put in it.
OK so now you have a suitcase full of tiles, 5 different tiles, so let’s say you placed 35 tiles in this suitcase of equal amounts in colour and made a hole just big enough to place your hand inside and pull one out but can’t see what your actually taking out and you grab one of those tiles and pull it out, now put it back in the suitcase and do it again and again and again, do that 50, 100, 1000 doesn’t really matter but give the suitcase a shake before every pull and see how many times you pull out the same colour consecutively.
There will be times where you pull out the same colour tile 2, 3, 5 or more times in a row but there will also be times when you don’t and that DON’T is going to happen more offen than not and that my friend is where the puzzles starts to play havic in our minds.
The fact that you are not pulling out the colours you actually want even though you are in full control of what your grabbing inside that suitcase is where you start wondering if either your hand is rigged/manipulated or is the suitcase rigged/manipulated.
I hope this helps you and others see and have a better understanding of what an RNG actually is and stop believing you are being cheated in some way but instead understand that like putting your hand inside that suitcase it’s is nothing more than a totally random chance (pure luck) that you will get a set tiles you actually want at that time.
A Mechanical Engineer I am by degree. And I don’t accept statements of “fact” without proof. If you are not willing to provide even a starting point of proof then I am not willing to accept your statements as fact. So then yes, they are simply rants. But I also won’t stand by and let someone rant as if they are speaking fact without challenging it. Unchallenged rants as fact lead to widespread mistaken belief.
The proof I have is nothing but empirical. Much like most people who complain about the same subject.
To start recording the necessary amount of games so as to present an acceptable sample size that would convince the people who argue my position is something I do not have the time nor the desire to do.
But the FACT that a lot of people present the same practical, objective experience is enough to make one question things.
Now you might argue tha the same thing happens with alien abduction victims. They don’t provide evidence but just their own subjective experience.
I agree that me not giving you data is against me. Yes you are most definetely right about that.
But once again you are not denying my logic that leads me to make the “statement” about rigging.
And since you are a Mechanical Engineer you are more than educated enough to understand and accept
my reasoning. But unless I get the source code of the game for the RNG, even if I give you any data from my games that I decide to collect, anyone can just as easily refute them by presenting their own. Also how are you going to trust the validity of my data? What if I manipulate them myself out of selfishness, just to prove my point?
My arguement for being so dogmatic in the use of the word FACT, is based on the KNOWLEDGE of the FACT that drop rates are programmable. The developers tell the game what to give you. It’s programmed that way. If for whatever reason they decide to make the HOTM drop rate 100%, everyone would get one.
So it raises the question of how random is random?
I claim rigged boards because that forces the player to engage more, to spend more, to want more.
Cause they know that the player is after the rush of winning. The thrill of getting that rare and strong HOTM or that special Hero from the event and so on. And everything is money here.
Resources, gems, ascension materials.
Also I see common patterns validated by other players as well. So I am not the only one that sees it. And unlike a UFO, this is programming code!!! Not little green men.
It is financially smart to use anything you have to maximize profits. And with the mechanincs of games like this, that content wise are small, you need incentives. Those are the heroes.
Throw a coin and it’s always 50% heads or tails. But what is the probability of never getting one at least once?
Once again, if you want the type of proof that others in the forums ask for (large sample size, statistical recording of tile drop with relation to hero choice and opponent setup) that is something that I cannot provide. And that is on me. I agree with you on that.
But at the same time I see no adamant refutal of my position other than the fact that one user I saw took a sample of 800 something games and gave results and concluded that it is random and another took a much smaller sample of about 20+ and found that there were problems. Who is right who is wrong?
And also let me say this. Maybe by sheer chance I get the sort end of the stick and I get bad boards more often than others. As in, I get more heads than tails from the afforementioned coin toss to the point that a bias is formed. And you could argue that, that is confirmation bias.
My problem is with the programmable nature of the coin toss.
Anyway, sorry for the long text.
TLDR You are right about me not having recorded my games to back my “claims”.
You are NOT right about that in and of itself being enough to refute my “claims” as just a rant.
Could elaborate more but I believe we will tire each other out. At the end of the day it’s just a game form which a company is making a profit. C’est la vie…
Actually the programming of an RNG has nothing to do with the drop rate, if every item offered within it was set to 100% you would find the same problems you are facing now. Percentagescare are only put in because that’s what makes the RNG run but it doesn’t decide what drops when or how many times, not even the developers can change that or manipulate that aspect of it.
Drop rates are programmed as you say, it’s a computer after all thus needing human interaction to work.
But the drop rates here are no secret as they are stated for everyone to see but again this doesn’t change or mean that one higher % item is going to drop more often than a lower % item and I think this is where your lack of understanding how it works makes you and many others think it’s rigged.
No I may not be an engineer but I do program/design websites and have been an executive in business for over 40yrs with a few different degrees and can tell you that it’s not because one is an engineer that they have it always right (I know from experience) and in fact that alone can also cause misguided conceptions of just the simplest things as they are more likely to over think a situation.
Also drop rates of RNG has always been a discussion throughout the internet for as long as the internet has existed and the bottom line is the same result from each and everyone one of them, it random and it can’t be tricked into not being.
This is very true. As an engineer I question and seek to understand everything. That is why I have looked at the data collected by others here and done my own analysis, rather than relying on highly unreliable “empirical observation”. Without actual presented data any “empirical observation” is simply hearsay.
Ah, but I am.
You are like the driver who complains about the traffic lights ALWAYS being red for him as he drives through three consecutive green lights.
Seems pretty near the mark.
You have provided no logically sound framework whatsoever, have suggested a needlessly elaborate and entirely far fetched programming approach, and apparently entirely misunderstand the economics of the situation. I would trust no bridge you built.
I am shocked to hear that you don’t think anyone should waste their time collecting actual data to test the rabid squirrel level crazy theory you propose. Just kidding! I’m not really shocked. It’s entirely predictable that someone who accepts an idea based on no evidence should resist the collection of evidence to test that idea. Again, I plan to avoid your bridges.
Here’s a thought experiment for you that requires no data collection:
You understand, I assume, that casino games are based on scrupulously random outcomes. The house always wins, over the long term, because the house sets the odds in its own favour and the Law of Large Numbers dictates that any short term losses can only be aberrations.
You also understand, I assume, that SG is more or less the house, when it comes to E&P. So why in Odin’s name would they ever choose to tinker with randomness, when they can instead change the odds as they wish whenever they choose - swiftly, simply, and (in many instances) without informing anyone?
If this is about summons there’s a topic for that already: Summons are ridiculous
Let’s all remember that you aren’t literally forced to put money in the game either – you can play without paying.
Casinos will make you pay to play. No such fee on this game to start playing – paying is optional.
I’m not going to deny that the game doesn’t encourage you to spend – as it certainly does like shoving offers in my screen all the time – but that’s a different discussion.
Regarding the odds of the boards specifically – which is what this topic is about – you don’t have to pay at all to start a raid or to start a map stage. So from my perspective, the argument about rigging boards to gain money makes zero sense, given by the fact that it costs nothing to play.
As for rigging the odds of summons? That’s a different discussion/complaint/vent for the above topic.