[Solved - V33 Update] Reflect buffs can only be bypassed by Ranger Talent, Ninja troops, etc. IF there's another defensive buff casted on top of it

Sorry if I don’t understand.

TLDR or TLDU:

Before – Reflect (as a buff) would NOT cause the parsing of the Bypass Ability. BUT if there was a buff which affect the heroes’ defence stat in some way, that WOULD cause the processing of the Bypass Abilty. Then if successful, it would bypass/ pierce EVERYTHING (including the reflect shields).

Future – Reflect now WILL cause the parsing of the Bypass Ability & no longer requires another defense modifying buff to be present.


Or in a Logic Sequence (Simplified)


Note: when I say “cause the parsing” what I mean is the condition/ presense of a buff which will enable the chance of Bypass/ Pierce ability.

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For the visual learners among us (like me), THANK YOU. That makes it so much simpler to see what this whole thread is about.

Well blue debuff does not work in reflect. It actually debuffs the hero that sent the special. So bypass could work the same way and be reflected if the reflect has a higher priority. That was sgg’s position before. Apparently they changed their mind

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The frustration for those of us that use the reflect heroes is that reflect was meant to be distinct to counterattack (reflect already allows for tile damage from the color being reflected so in that they are distinct and reflect is “weaker” than counterattack which punishes both tiles and damage from specials). As Kira admitted, it was not supposed to be pierceable.

Now that SG is aware that they made an error in the coding they are changing the special in order to simplify the coding.

That feels very, very wrong. I understand the logic of making it possible to pierce the reflects but it completely against the initial intent of reflect.

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But see that’s where i find it confusing, because only 2 elements have reflect buff, but there are ranger talents in all elements, so to me the talent supersedes they reflect esp since it’s not a SS and designed to do just that pierce through when active, but that of a hero class, it should work the same across the board and be able to pierce all defensive buffs. Esp since it is only based on the percentage chance and not always guaranteed.

Colbalt gives 100% guarantee, but that’s at 300% so kill him before he charges up to 3rd level, although I don’t see many AI Colbalts on defense holding out for 300 percent intentionally LOL

I do see how it can be viewed the other way, it just seems more logical the way it currently is in my opinion.

Glad for this discussion…
It always seemed too powerful to me if ice and holy reflect would be absolute. There should be a chance (per each hero hit) of being pierced by Rangers, or otherwise bypassed if the card SS allows it (Ninjas).

Otherwise, Mitsuko’s skill, for example, is just too automatic… find enough tiles before ice hero charges and most will basically kill themselves. It’s more interesting if Athena defender might entirely blow herself up, or maybe cut through and flatten a red hero (given her extra damage) but still take some reflect damage from the others.

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@Cymro
Recall that Mitsuko came out long before emblems and classes. Until then 100% of blue heroes were reflected 100% of the time and the entire community was fine with that.

Much later classes were introduced and as Kira stated above, the Ranger talent was not supposed to pierce the reflects as it is NOT the same as a counterattack (Mitsuko and Ursena being the only two with this special so far). It was a programming mistake that allowed the piercing to happen

To paraphrase:
“We didn’t know there was a mistake until you lot proved it and because we don’t know how to fix it we will make it worse”.

No one thought Mitsuko was OP when she was reflecting 100% of the blue special skills prior to classes being introduced, as a matter of fact many wrote her off as too niche to be useful.

I would be open to a debate on the merits of intentionally making a change based on data (not that bloody “usage” garbage used to excuse killing Telly and Vela).

To significantly reduce the effectiveness of a hero due to a mistake and then be unwilling to fix the mistake is shameful. What SG is doing here compounds the shame by willfully exacerbating the problem, reducing the effectiveness even further.

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While I’m sure that’s not strictly true, I’ll leave it to you to prove the negative :grinning:

I don’t think Mitsuko is OP overall, more so the reflect mechanic itself. When players (with the means to do so) are maxing several copies of a hero, largely for one particular effect in war attacks, that’s an indication that the skill is perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, the game evolves as counters and rule exceptions are often introduced - after a time - to keep things moving (and spending higher). We didn’t used to have skill ‘blocking’ ala Malosi that undermines or totally neuters the effects of many many heroes, Mitsuko & Ursena included. So it goes…

Giving Rangers a ~1/4 (or a bit higher with ninja troop) chance of not immediately killing themselves seems reasonable to me, compared to blocking effects. Cobalt needs ~14 tiles for that 100% breakthrough & Finley has to beat the odds multiple times in a row not to self destruct.

Always i use Mitsuko vs Cobalt and win Mitsuko

As I said open to having a discussion about the merits of making a change to a card because it is needed. Very much against changing a card because the programming was done poorly and it is too difficult to sort out.

Some players’ initial thoughts on Mitsuko quoted below (she was released prior to Beta Beat being launched so commentary is all over the place):

That is not necessarily an indication that a skill is too powerful, but that it’s the best for what you’re looking to accomplish: ie killing ice heroes

There’s four other elements not covered by it whatsoever, and how often do you see defenses doubling up on a color, especially ice? Almost never. So although it may be the best at accomplishing that, it’s a far cry from being OP, as the balance is built in to the mechanic

If you use this as a definitive answer for meaning too powerful, then I assume you find Ariel too powerful, too? As right now, she’s still the favored healer, so many will level more than one. Same goes for Hel, being the best at mana control. Then there’s Miki, the best for titans.

See what I’m saying here?

All that means [at least to me] is that they’re best at their specific niche, and Mitsuko’s specific niche is killing ice heroes (ala why she’s maxed more than once). But her skill is far from being versatile, as more often than not, it applies to one, maybe two, heroes out of five - therefore, a far cry from OP.

Ursena is a bit more tricky, as she reflects what she’s strong against, which, in turn, makes her more powerful, but I don’t see as many people maxing doubles of her as I do with Mitsy. & My guess, that has more to do with how many other great offensive heroes purple has (where red sorely lacks), and how many offensive ice heroes there are in this game (and deadly ones, at that cough Finley cough)

So yeah, idk if Mitsy was ever considered OP

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@KiraSG @Petri Is this fix already live? Or will it be implemented with the next update? :slight_smile:

We see it all the time in the top end wars. 4 out of the top 5 run predominantly double blues so Mits is very valuable but like stated not OP.

My group is still seeing nearly 1/4 of war defenses running double ice. It’s the most common double color by far in the top tier for raid defenses too.

I’ll state again that I’m not saying Mitsuko is OP, never was. Rather, the reflect skill itself is, imo… or would be, if there is not another skill that had a chance to bypass it.

Four out of five? Really?

Knew before Vela and Telly nerf people were rocking double blues, but didn’t realize it was still happening post-nerf that frequently. Interesting :slightly_smiling_face:

Severely opens up a team to a green mono stack and Mitsy as a counter, so would think most that can would still run rainbow (even if ice has some great heroes). Especially in war, as you essentially end up forced to stack against the flanks anyway.

You’d have to own and place GM in the opposite flank in order to make the double blues work [well] as he’s the only major deterrent for green stacks. & You’d wanna only double ice if you already have a few amazing heroes [in that element], like Finley, that are devastating enough to make up for the extra risk. So at best, I see that as being a top 100 thing only, as most people don’t own all of those heroes in order to place in their defense [so strategically] like that, but I could be wrong [on that] too. As I don’t doubt emblems, and class, influence that decision [heavily] as well, but with the recent influx [of emblems], that shouldn’t be the sole reason for doubling [much longer].

As my team, we rarely see doubling of colors (including ice), maybe one to two of 30 here and then, but we’re a top 200-300 alliance. & If/when we do, it’s almost always an easy slaughter (I love hunting for em in raids). So idk, don’t see value in it unless you’re working with a very specific subset of heroes and/or have placed them with strategy in mind, but again, could be wrong on that.

I’ve always been of frame of mind that rainbow defenses > anything else [for war/raids] unless carefully and methodically planned out - so I will admit that I am bias

I don’t dispute it’s the most common color to be doubled (or at least was, pre Telly/Vela nerf). Lol I knew I was gonna regret saying it that way.

What I meant is that, Mitsuko relies on that doubling to be of most use; not just any doubling, but ice doubling. & That requires very specific circumstances; that isn’t quite as vague or versatile as an attack down, dispel, defense up, etc. which is what makes it balanced [in the end], veering far from OP, as it’s also her main purpose/allure.

Though, I don’t think ice holds the crown any longer, or at least, not near as much now that yurple has come back into the fold [as another form or doubling defense]

& To be OT: Pierce should’ve always been applicable to apply on all reflect abilities except for the element in question (ie ice or holy). That seems obvious to me, as it’s their main allure, and its written into the special. The ice hero would then pierce themselves, just as they attack themselves upon firing [during an active reflect]

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While this may not be 100% satisfactory resolution, I will mark this thread as “Solved” in the V33 Update:

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Thanks @Guvnor for updating :+1:

Just think of all the excitement & anticipation now, when bringing Mitsuko against Ice Rangers… lol.
“ALL HANDS! Brace for 25% chance of IMPACT!” :grimacing:

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25%. Yeah. For sure.

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