[Solved - V33 Update] Reflect buffs can only be bypassed by Ranger Talent, Ninja troops, etc. IF there's another defensive buff casted on top of it

Bugs & Issues
#139

That is not necessarily an indication that a skill is too powerful, but that it’s the best for what you’re looking to accomplish: ie killing ice heroes

There’s four other elements not covered by it whatsoever, and how often do you see defenses doubling up on a color, especially ice? Almost never. So although it may be the best at accomplishing that, it’s a far cry from being OP, as the balance is built in to the mechanic

If you use this as a definitive answer for meaning too powerful, then I assume you find Ariel too powerful, too? As right now, she’s still the favored healer, so many will level more than one. Same goes for Hel, being the best at mana control. Then there’s Miki, the best for titans.

See what I’m saying here?

All that means [at least to me] is that they’re best at their specific niche, and Mitsuko’s specific niche is killing ice heroes (ala why she’s maxed more than once). But her skill is far from being versatile, as more often than not, it applies to one, maybe two, heroes out of five - therefore, a far cry from OP.

Ursena is a bit more tricky, as she reflects what she’s strong against, which, in turn, makes her more powerful, but I don’t see as many people maxing doubles of her as I do with Mitsy. & My guess, that has more to do with how many other great offensive heroes purple has (where red sorely lacks), and how many offensive ice heroes there are in this game (and deadly ones, at that cough Finley cough)

So yeah, idk if Mitsy was ever considered OP

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#140

@KiraSG @Petri Is this fix already live? Or will it be implemented with the next update? :slight_smile:

#141

We see it all the time in the top end wars. 4 out of the top 5 run predominantly double blues so Mits is very valuable but like stated not OP.

#142

My group is still seeing nearly 1/4 of war defenses running double ice. It’s the most common double color by far in the top tier for raid defenses too.

I’ll state again that I’m not saying Mitsuko is OP, never was. Rather, the reflect skill itself is, imo… or would be, if there is not another skill that had a chance to bypass it.

#143

Four out of five? Really?

Knew before Vela and Telly nerf people were rocking double blues, but didn’t realize it was still happening post-nerf that frequently. Interesting :slightly_smiling_face:

Severely opens up a team to a green mono stack and Mitsy as a counter, so would think most that can would still run rainbow (even if ice has some great heroes). Especially in war, as you essentially end up forced to stack against the flanks anyway.

You’d have to own and place GM in the opposite flank in order to make the double blues work [well] as he’s the only major deterrent for green stacks. & You’d wanna only double ice if you already have a few amazing heroes [in that element], like Finley, that are devastating enough to make up for the extra risk. So at best, I see that as being a top 100 thing only, as most people don’t own all of those heroes in order to place in their defense [so strategically] like that, but I could be wrong [on that] too. As I don’t doubt emblems, and class, influence that decision [heavily] as well, but with the recent influx [of emblems], that shouldn’t be the sole reason for doubling [much longer].

As my team, we rarely see doubling of colors (including ice), maybe one to two of 30 here and then, but we’re a top 200-300 alliance. & If/when we do, it’s almost always an easy slaughter (I love hunting for em in raids). So idk, don’t see value in it unless you’re working with a very specific subset of heroes and/or have placed them with strategy in mind, but again, could be wrong on that.

I’ve always been of frame of mind that rainbow defenses > anything else [for war/raids] unless carefully and methodically planned out - so I will admit that I am bias

I don’t dispute it’s the most common color to be doubled (or at least was, pre Telly/Vela nerf). Lol I knew I was gonna regret saying it that way.

What I meant is that, Mitsuko relies on that doubling to be of most use; not just any doubling, but ice doubling. & That requires very specific circumstances; that isn’t quite as vague or versatile as an attack down, dispel, defense up, etc. which is what makes it balanced [in the end], veering far from OP, as it’s also her main purpose/allure.

Though, I don’t think ice holds the crown any longer, or at least, not near as much now that yurple has come back into the fold [as another form or doubling defense]

& To be OT: Pierce should’ve always been applicable to apply on all reflect abilities except for the element in question (ie ice or holy). That seems obvious to me, as it’s their main allure, and its written into the special. The ice hero would then pierce themselves, just as they attack themselves upon firing [during an active reflect]

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#144

While this may not be 100% satisfactory resolution, I will mark this thread as “Solved” in the V33 Update:

2 Likes
#145

Thanks @Guvnor for updating :+1:

Just think of all the excitement & anticipation now, when bringing Mitsuko against Ice Rangers… lol.
“ALL HANDS! Brace for 25% chance of IMPACT!” :grimacing:

2 Likes
#146

25%. Yeah. For sure.

#147

Didn’t take too long for me to find & test it out today…

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2 of 5 Finley’s chain hits pierced that particular time. And note the smart pairing that allowed him to resist the defense-debuffs that were reflected… hats off to them!

2 Likes
#148

Cobalt definitely needs a fix or clear card! Please clarify whether “reflect” is a defensive buff or not as it doesn’t have anything to do with defense stat.

For the theory that if there is any other defensive buff already active, this might cause Cobalt to bypass regardless to Mits’ reflect, please see the attached screenshot where Rigard gets hit.

I’m just trying to understand Cobalt’s special behaviour to bring up a strategy against him. He is currently a bit unstable.

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Screenshot_20201121-1217521440×3120 2.33 MB

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Screenshot_20201121-1216061440×3120 2.34 MB

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Screenshot_20201121-1216121440×3120 2.41 MB

#149

I believe he is working as anticipated. In your first screenshot he appears to have been charged to +3 when he fired – so 100% chance to bypass all defensive buffs (these are buffs put up on your attack team) and hits all; in your second screenshot he appears to have been charged to +1 when he fired – so x% chance to bypass defensive buffs to the target he hits (Rigard it seems; reflect is a defensive buff from Cobalt’s POV).

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#150

I see that this change was rolled out in V33. Thanks for clarification :slight_smile:

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#151

Laughable really, they nerf Vela and now nerf MIT’s but Finley and this beast (Cobalt) is fine.

#152

I have no problem with mitsuko reflect for blue hero’s are now has a change to be piersed by pieresed tallent ore even ninja troop and cobalt hapens to he able to pierse for 100% after he fires with be 3x mana bar filled.

#154

Couple of things.

  1. Double blue is still very viable and remains a popular choice - couple of top 10 alliances run double blue, usually Cobalt + Finley or Lepus + Finley.
  2. Running mono green is a bit of a gamble because you are likely facing 30 gravemakers at that level, so a sluggish board will see half your team shredded before you even get going.
  3. Also prior to the release of Francine, running mono green meant that you are likely not going to be able to bring a cleanser in your setup (I think the only other 5* option is Lady Locke and at that level no one brings 4*s not named c.Rigard). This means that if Vela does go off with her attack debuff, you are often left in a bad position. You could go 4-1 and bring a c.Rigs for example, but then 3 green tiles will not be enough to snipe that blue on defense.
  4. Many alliances at top 10 level run double of a colour on defense - whether thats double blue, double red or even double green. The main reason it is correct for the majority of people to run rainbow defense is troops. For the average player, they probably have one set of high level troops (either at 23, maybe at 29/30). Many alliances recruiting at top 10 level will have criterias like having 1 set of 29 + 23 troops which allows you to double up on a colour on defence. FWIW, I ran a triple purple defence during v. Fast wars.
  5. Mitsy is only a counter if you are able to find 9 tiles (assuming a lvl 23 troop) before she dies. Between the mana slow of telluria and how fast defences are there are many attacks that just get shredded before she is even able to go off.
  6. Finally as you pointed out, doubling of colours is only effective if the majority of the alliance is running the same tactic. If 1-2 people run that strat they are easy prey. When 25+ of the alliance do it, I don’t know of that many people who have 6 Mitsuko’s maxed…
#155

I get the part about Elemental reflect.

Titanium shield: This means fighting bosses in NT (Ninja tower) they can bypass it, right?

Will Ninja troops be able to bypass Elemental reflect,too? I think the answer will be yes.

@Guvnor

Thx, Viking

#156

I expect so, yes.

I believe that the Ninja Troop is using the same coding as the Ranger Talent. Obviously i’m not staff or a dev or anything so I can’t say for sure.

#157

Exactly my thougths :ok_hand:

#158

Just catching up on this topic now… yeah this “fix” reeks of lazy programming and changes the original intended design/spec of Mits to effectively nerf her. Sad to see SG go that way.

2 Likes
#159

It’s a pretty significant nerf. Finley regularly bypasses at least 3 of Mits reflects now. I wouldn’t have an issue with it, honestly, if the talent %s were not complete BS. But, they are. So now there is no longer a natural counter to one of the most OP heros in the game. As for the Ninja guy, that’s fine, it’s written clear into his card that if he gets charged 3x you’re screwed. I know going in to not count on Mits to reflect.

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