[Solved - V33 Update] Reflect buffs can only be bypassed by Ranger Talent, Ninja troops, etc. IF there's another defensive buff casted on top of it

Bai Yeong is also a yellow ranger. And Chao.

But clearly the biggest threat is costume Bane.

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What is the tl;dr here. A bug fix is coming to ensure there is always a chance to bypass vs reflect buff and so Cobalt will always bypass on 3rd charge (which is clearly not the case currently)? Yeah that’s fine I guess. Another balancing method might be to allow dispels of the colour in question to remove the reflect.

We identified as part of this thread that it’s actually a bug that occurs when heroes have another defensive buff cast before Mitsuko’s reflect, such as GM elemental link.
Instead of fixing the bug, they chose to make it the normal behavior and have the bypass work even if there is no other defensive buff

It should work regardless of there being another defensive buff right? I guess I’m confused because When I think of bypassing defensive buffs, I don’t see it as situational. If the hero talent is active it should bypass all defensive buffs, including elemental reflect. Reflect is a defensive buff and absent of the talent a blue hero would be reflected, so piercing would be just the opposite. @Max_paris

Sorry if I don’t understand.

TLDR or TLDU:

Before – Reflect (as a buff) would NOT cause the parsing of the Bypass Ability. BUT if there was a buff which affect the heroes’ defence stat in some way, that WOULD cause the processing of the Bypass Abilty. Then if successful, it would bypass/ pierce EVERYTHING (including the reflect shields).

Future – Reflect now WILL cause the parsing of the Bypass Ability & no longer requires another defense modifying buff to be present.


Or in a Logic Sequence (Simplified)


Note: when I say “cause the parsing” what I mean is the condition/ presense of a buff which will enable the chance of Bypass/ Pierce ability.

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For the visual learners among us (like me), THANK YOU. That makes it so much simpler to see what this whole thread is about.

Well blue debuff does not work in reflect. It actually debuffs the hero that sent the special. So bypass could work the same way and be reflected if the reflect has a higher priority. That was sgg’s position before. Apparently they changed their mind

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The frustration for those of us that use the reflect heroes is that reflect was meant to be distinct to counterattack (reflect already allows for tile damage from the color being reflected so in that they are distinct and reflect is “weaker” than counterattack which punishes both tiles and damage from specials). As Kira admitted, it was not supposed to be pierceable.

Now that SG is aware that they made an error in the coding they are changing the special in order to simplify the coding.

That feels very, very wrong. I understand the logic of making it possible to pierce the reflects but it completely against the initial intent of reflect.

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But see that’s where i find it confusing, because only 2 elements have reflect buff, but there are ranger talents in all elements, so to me the talent supersedes they reflect esp since it’s not a SS and designed to do just that pierce through when active, but that of a hero class, it should work the same across the board and be able to pierce all defensive buffs. Esp since it is only based on the percentage chance and not always guaranteed.

Colbalt gives 100% guarantee, but that’s at 300% so kill him before he charges up to 3rd level, although I don’t see many AI Colbalts on defense holding out for 300 percent intentionally LOL

I do see how it can be viewed the other way, it just seems more logical the way it currently is in my opinion.

Glad for this discussion…
It always seemed too powerful to me if ice and holy reflect would be absolute. There should be a chance (per each hero hit) of being pierced by Rangers, or otherwise bypassed if the card SS allows it (Ninjas).

Otherwise, Mitsuko’s skill, for example, is just too automatic… find enough tiles before ice hero charges and most will basically kill themselves. It’s more interesting if Athena defender might entirely blow herself up, or maybe cut through and flatten a red hero (given her extra damage) but still take some reflect damage from the others.

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@Cymro
Recall that Mitsuko came out long before emblems and classes. Until then 100% of blue heroes were reflected 100% of the time and the entire community was fine with that.

Much later classes were introduced and as Kira stated above, the Ranger talent was not supposed to pierce the reflects as it is NOT the same as a counterattack (Mitsuko and Ursena being the only two with this special so far). It was a programming mistake that allowed the piercing to happen

To paraphrase:
“We didn’t know there was a mistake until you lot proved it and because we don’t know how to fix it we will make it worse”.

No one thought Mitsuko was OP when she was reflecting 100% of the blue special skills prior to classes being introduced, as a matter of fact many wrote her off as too niche to be useful.

I would be open to a debate on the merits of intentionally making a change based on data (not that bloody “usage” garbage used to excuse killing Telly and Vela).

To significantly reduce the effectiveness of a hero due to a mistake and then be unwilling to fix the mistake is shameful. What SG is doing here compounds the shame by willfully exacerbating the problem, reducing the effectiveness even further.

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While I’m sure that’s not strictly true, I’ll leave it to you to prove the negative :grinning:

I don’t think Mitsuko is OP overall, more so the reflect mechanic itself. When players (with the means to do so) are maxing several copies of a hero, largely for one particular effect in war attacks, that’s an indication that the skill is perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, the game evolves as counters and rule exceptions are often introduced - after a time - to keep things moving (and spending higher). We didn’t used to have skill ‘blocking’ ala Malosi that undermines or totally neuters the effects of many many heroes, Mitsuko & Ursena included. So it goes…

Giving Rangers a ~1/4 (or a bit higher with ninja troop) chance of not immediately killing themselves seems reasonable to me, compared to blocking effects. Cobalt needs ~14 tiles for that 100% breakthrough & Finley has to beat the odds multiple times in a row not to self destruct.

Always i use Mitsuko vs Cobalt and win Mitsuko

As I said open to having a discussion about the merits of making a change to a card because it is needed. Very much against changing a card because the programming was done poorly and it is too difficult to sort out.

Some players’ initial thoughts on Mitsuko quoted below (she was released prior to Beta Beat being launched so commentary is all over the place):

That is not necessarily an indication that a skill is too powerful, but that it’s the best for what you’re looking to accomplish: ie killing ice heroes

There’s four other elements not covered by it whatsoever, and how often do you see defenses doubling up on a color, especially ice? Almost never. So although it may be the best at accomplishing that, it’s a far cry from being OP, as the balance is built in to the mechanic

If you use this as a definitive answer for meaning too powerful, then I assume you find Ariel too powerful, too? As right now, she’s still the favored healer, so many will level more than one. Same goes for Hel, being the best at mana control. Then there’s Miki, the best for titans.

See what I’m saying here?

All that means [at least to me] is that they’re best at their specific niche, and Mitsuko’s specific niche is killing ice heroes (ala why she’s maxed more than once). But her skill is far from being versatile, as more often than not, it applies to one, maybe two, heroes out of five - therefore, a far cry from OP.

Ursena is a bit more tricky, as she reflects what she’s strong against, which, in turn, makes her more powerful, but I don’t see as many people maxing doubles of her as I do with Mitsy. & My guess, that has more to do with how many other great offensive heroes purple has (where red sorely lacks), and how many offensive ice heroes there are in this game (and deadly ones, at that cough Finley cough)

So yeah, idk if Mitsy was ever considered OP

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@KiraSG @Petri Is this fix already live? Or will it be implemented with the next update? :slight_smile:

We see it all the time in the top end wars. 4 out of the top 5 run predominantly double blues so Mits is very valuable but like stated not OP.

My group is still seeing nearly 1/4 of war defenses running double ice. It’s the most common double color by far in the top tier for raid defenses too.

I’ll state again that I’m not saying Mitsuko is OP, never was. Rather, the reflect skill itself is, imo… or would be, if there is not another skill that had a chance to bypass it.