With the shift to buff punishment, starting the trend with Finley, I don’t feel that every future, current, and past hero of the month needs to be released with a built in detriment. Recategorizing what an elemental link is keeps the focus of buff punishing heroes on actual buffs… not these small boosts, as most are.
Agreed. Either that or have Finley and future heroes ignore elemental link.
Why not give a yes/no vote? This data will be misleading at best
I would disagree with that, those are already bonuses you cannot remove and stack for significant gains (some of them are equal to 125 emblem nods especially the mana and def and attack ones)
I know when I run my blue stack, with Miki, Frida, Aegir and Alaise going off you become near invincible and the opposing team cannot do anything about that.
If you want to make them non interactive then there needs to be a counterbalance to make them non stacking as well.
They are not insignificant and the fact that they are non removable (at least until the new guardian heroes come out) will create a new meta on offense if there is no countermeasure which Finley is (and even he is so rare that I do not understand what the fuss is all about)
On defense that is fairly limited as most people will run rainbow teams and you need to set off multiple heroes if you want to use Finley to hit more than 2.
In fact I would counter argue, the availability of Finley is so remote and expensive vs HOTMs with links that those links are a bigger issue and I guess that is why the guardian heroes got released.
Disclaimer - I got almost all HOTMs from the day I started playing and I have Finley so how ever this swings I am net neutral and having used Finley extensively both in wars, raids and on my def team I really do not see the issue with elemental links as much as I see an issue with Aegir and Wilbur interaction.
I faced two teams with Finley. Honestly it was not the end of the world. He is very strong, but did not weigh much in the result. I won on both occasions.
The change of elemental link status because of a single hero, is a big exaggeration. In my opinion, it should not be changed.
There are more heroes coming who punish buffs. It’s best to make this switch now.
No reason every hotm need to be released with a guaranteed negative aspect.
But the point is just that. HOTMs already have their own unique advantages, such as their innate ability to resist a certain thing and their elemental bond, which is not just for them, but for all their allies of the same element. Not to mention that these bonds can be accumulated with others and cannot be dispelled. Nothing fairer than countermeasures to be taken.
Finley and any other hero to come has no invincibility or is unstoppable. There are clever measures to deal with all of them. Place a hero that reflects damage, or elemental ice barrier, that Finley encounters suicide. Avoid heroes with elemental bonds or shoot after him as he will only deal 1 medium damage.
I think there are a lot more people who accumulate elemental links than there are those who have a brand new and rare event hero. So for me these are the biggest threats. If heroes are coming to fight this, all the better.
I don’t understand the comments of… I have an invinsible blue team because of links (no you don’t, remove the links and it’s still that same team)… or I fought finley and he didn’t matter (I’ve also yet to lose to a finley myself and I know how to counter him just fine)… or he’s rare (so was guin at one point)… it’s all beside the point, and I’ve said it numerous times already, there shouldn’t be any hero that can counter every single hotm (no matter the color) and make all teams with hotms effectively worse, if you want to keep Finley the way he is, let me turn off the links (I should have a choice on if I want to bring a buff hero vs him or not… currently, I really don’t). He should be a buff hitting hero, not a hotm killer.
But all heroes are built to shoot down all enemies. See Ursena, GM and so many others.
I think the comments quoted are quite clear, but do not fit your opinion.
The ways to fight Finley were given as examples, not directed at you. Glad you can fight it.
No one ever thought of turning off elemental links when they gave them the upper hand.
Fortunately there are ways to play for everyone, no one is or will be invincible with Finley, Guin, GM or accumulating elemental links.
If a specific mechanic forces a change in our game, we have to learn to deal with it (except, of course, those who already know).
You and I won’t see eye to eye on this, it’s fine, you tend to lean towards very strong heroes (I’ve seen your posts about kingston and about Neith and your idea of balance differs from mine) while I’m just trying to make sense out of a hero that effectively makes all money making heroes for SG worse (depending on how much we start to see him)… I believe in risk and reward, the reward of the links aren’t worth the risk fighting this hero… the longer you play the more HOTM you’ll potentially aquire and he’ll start to become unavoidable as a potential team wipe, I don’t think that’s healthy personally. Turning what once was a small, yes… small benefit of having a hotm is now going to come at a cost… the folks that will battle Finley the most are going to be top 100 clans… the ones with the most hotms as well… Finley as he is right now, is a blantant grab for money to fight money already spent … they are biting the hands that feed them by making hotms worse vs defenses with him. I’m over it though, I’m not going to keep talking to the same 2 guys about it as you’re both obviously fine with it. I get that and I’ve spoke my peace on him, I’m moving on.
This is a novel idea for E&P. I remember in an MMO I played a long time ago, I could click on a buff to dismiss it (but obviously, not a debuff). It sounds like you’re suggesting something along those lines.
And actually, I can see other applications for this. Let’s say I’m in an Alliance War and my opponent has 500hp left on his Boril tank with counterattack up and full strength Melendor in a corner. I have flanking Triton left with 600hp, his special is ready to fire, and Kashhrek is beside him at tank. Triton happens to have an attack+ buff on him leftover from a now expired Boldtusk.
If I fire Triton at Boril, he’ll hit Boril for 580 damage, and he’ll take 625 in return, which is going to take them both out. If he didn’t have the buff, he’d hit Boril for 420 damage and he would take 525 in return, with both surviving the exchange. In the latter case, I can then send up some green tiles to finish off Boril, mana up Kashhrek, and heal Triton so that I can now set my sights on Melendor. But if I trade pieces (Triton for Boril), I’m left with Kashhrek vs. Melendor, and I’m going to time out or lose outright if the arrows or attack boost do me in.
It’s some pretty serious micromanagement, and it could even be extended to removing debuffs off of enemies. But I would rather see this approach than to see element links ignored as buffs.
Thanks for the feedback. Curious… how do you feel about family bonuses? Should those be seen as buffs also or are we comfortable with those just being a bonus that can never be effected? Do you feel family bonses are overall weaker or stronger then links and do you feel links are important / strong enough to warrent a specific hero that can counter them all from this point forward? You don’t really have to answer back haha, I’m just kind of thinking out loud… family bonuses are a new, interesting buff … if folks spend the next year or two maxing family members for those buffs and they bring out a hero that devestates all family groupings (fast, does 100% more damage per family member…) will folks be fine with that as well… probably.
I wish that I could give a more informed opinion, but at this point, the only family bonus I’ve actually put into play is Lagoon, and that’s for having Agwe and Gobbler on my S1:8-7 farming squad. But at least from a technical standpoint, I would have a hard time counting them as a buff, because they’re permanent. At least undispellable buffs/debuffs last for a limited number of turns.
I feel like things went sideways beginning with Ameonna and they’re progressing into an even worse place with Guardian Chameleon/Gazelle (does Snow White also dispel undispellable buffs?) by dispelling undispellable status effects on other targets. Like, Ameonna still gets her family bonus in ghost form (I’m assuming here), and she can obviously interact with the physical world given her terrific slash damage in ghost form, so why not let her counterattack in ghost form without taking damage? why doesn’t she stay on fire and just not take burn damage? (an on fire ghost would be more threatening to me!) If it’s for balance reasons (and I imagine it is) then rework her skill a little bit rather than blowing away a whole cornerstone of combat mechanics.
But back to the family bonuses - personally I find them more on the half-baked side. If they were too significant then they change the meta for those people who can afford them and they would run four or five heroes in the family (which you can do now with the challenge event families - and the challenge event family bonuses are equal to two season two family bonuses). On the other hand, if they’re not significant enough, they get ignored, or utilized on the fringe because maybe running Wilbur, Agwe, Gobbler, Gato, and Muggy is the best you can put out there. Again, going back to other games I’ve played, having a five piece set was supposed to be a significant accomplishment, and sometimes it was good enough that you’d keep using it even when you started to get gear from the next tier, until at some point, the bonus was no longer worthwhile. Maybe someone will correct me, but the family bonuses here don’t seem to offer enough to try to collect the family.
Family bonuses are nice but for them to be achieved fully you either have to carry on a 4* or worst a 3* hero (so you are gimping your team already), or invest significant money and pray for crazy amount of luck to pull all 5* from that event (and even then you are going to end up with an underwhelming lineup just to satisfy a bonus, some are nice and some not so much)
With elemental link, you fire the special once and thats it. Its to easy to attain vs the family bonus so the call to have them count as buffs is very tough as you would have to make them undispellable as well.
Now the problem I see with some people in this thread is that there are no solid counter arguments. Its just my way or the highway approach and no debate which is I guess simply some way some people want to carry on this subject and I will not waste my time debating something without proof and based on personal gut feeling.
This game is very statistically driven, not every hero is equally powered also (and that is the beauty of it, if everyone is perfectly balanced where is the fun in that? Its like running with same hero but different looks) and also there is an element of RNG to it.
Elemental links are one of those things that you know you can build your team around, you have a selection of buffs you can take to the fight and you can run a 3-2 or a 2-2-1 or a mono stack and benefit from multiple of them on color stacks. They are non removable so once you get them up there is no way to play around them. Where is the weak spot? I suggested to make them non stacking (or limit the stack to like 2) so they dont become overpowered if they are also non counterable.
Finley has a fair bit of RNG in his hits as well, you will not see a mono stack on defence thus you will in 90% of the cases have like 1 elemental link up on your opponent meaning Finley hits max 2, how is that overpowered? Also you do not control the second hit and he might hit a hero you dont want to hit thus wasting a good part of his special.
On defense he is easy to play around, I fought him multiple times already and if you want to blindly throw tiles at him while having full buffs on your heroes well maybe its time to rethink your strategy then.
He is a strong hero because he deals with the aspects of the game which have no counter at all and that is his role.
I find funny that someone is comparing Guin availability to Finley knowing that Guin was a top tank for a good part of this games lifetime and people were spending serious $ to get her as there was no alternative. I am not sure Finley is even the best blue hero, or even the best Ranger emblem candidate so thinking people will run after him like they run after Guin and expecting to see him in 80% of top defenses like Guin was is absurd to say the least.
In the end, I see a request to further buff a very strong element of the game because of 1 hero with the analogy that he counters every HOTM , well shall we also nerf Yunan because he counters every healer? Or maybe LOTL (who is indeed borderline OP, as a proud owner I can stand behind the claim she is a top 3 offensive raid hero) because she counters every hero in the game with mana minions? Or Zeline because she also debuffs all and reduces attack? The list goes on and to cap it all off, while asking for a buff to this element of the game there is no countermeasure like limiting the amount of links to ensure we dont step into OP mono stack modes especially with the new HOTMs who have innate resistances.
Not to waste anymore thread space, this is my 2 cents, I appreciate different opinions and constructive debate so I will let others battle this out this time