Rebalance Vanilla 5* heroes (non-costumed ones)

[FraVit93]

@rilian I went back in a old topic to find this post with more ideas:

Rebalance Old Heroes

Heroes that in my opinion would need some improvement of their special skill: Domitia: empower the buffs removal to the whole team Obakan: change him to very fast speed Quintus: add a 20% mana reduction and extra damage to holy heroes only Sartana: Not needed Joon: not needed Justice: self cleanse and higher blind chance Leonidas: not needed Vivica: change her to medium speed with a heals reduced to 33% Elkanen: heal allies for half of the damage dealt Horghall: self cleanse, the caster…

[Death4]

People just sit down and get shafted by the game and support their decisions to shaft everyone. I like the idea to make S1 5 stars more useful. Even just reshaping their special can greatly help the games appeal. Yes they already released costume paywall but why can’t the costumes be stupid good like some are and the reg hero also be more usable and competitive. Is the game going to shaft us either way? Of course. At least speak up and let them know you hate being shafted. I would have rather tried and tell them things sucks. It’s all opinion though and that’s mine. I think if they are “rebalancing” hero’s S1 definitely needs it too. I like how they are nerfing the HOTM that won’t get them as much money as people instead having to keep trying for BK, Guin and so on. “Telluria is too good and needs to be nerfed”. Well let me tell you “Season 1 hero’s suck and need to be buffed”.

[Kadaxas]

I think a lot of people consider costumes to be the buff vanilla heroes needed. But costumes are not vanilla heroes. They’re barely related.

If I drew a costume Azlar, it does not make my base Azlar more valuable (except as a head start in experience). The costume comes with a copy of the original already, so the base Azlar I already drew will still feel worthless, yes? And drawing a vanilla Azlar alone does not give me any progress to having the costume. My base Azlar would only be a glorified trainer hero for my costume, right?

I think Azlar’s costume should be considered an entirely separate hero from the original one, with no relation. It’s not a buff for Azlar; it’s an entirely separate hero and does nothing to make vanilla Azlar more useful. That’s my standpoint. Costumes don’t fix vanillas in even the slightest degree; it’s simply another summon portal.

Have I missed something?

[rilian]

@Kadaxas

Have I missed something?

Yes. Because if you pulled one Azlar, you can make all your Azlars costumed. So, pull one costume, then just use TC for get more heroes.

So, costumes is a buff and a hero too.

[Eldente]

You’re missing the fact that maxing the costume also increases the vanilla version’s stats (+5% atk/def, +10% hp and a whopping 5% mana gen).

For a lot of cases, it pushes the vanilla hero from mediocre to good and from good to great.

[FraVit93]

Yeah, we can consider costumes as cheap to level premium mana troop’s extenders under this scenario.

[solipsism]

@rilian

• Vivica - make her def up only 30% and make her average mana

Too much. Average mana is a non-starter.

@rilian

• Justice - make her mana cut 10% like Neith

Reasonable

@rilian

1. Leonidas - make him fast and maybe up damage.

Leo is OK. Giving him like 400% damage seems fair.

@rilian

• Quintus - add poison damage (like 200 per 2 turns)

Seems OK.

@rilian

• Obakan - up damage

Yeah

@rilian

• Domitia - remove her yellow def, and make her like Kage (displel, then hit).

I think this undermines riposte a bit too much, which has already taken a beating.

I’d make her fast but the costume would be OP then.

@rilian

1. Sartana - make her DoT 2 turns.

Reasonable, but she doesn’t really need balance.

@rilian

• Kadilen - add cleanse

I think she’s OK as is, maybe an attack boost.

@rilian

Elkanen - add -15% mana slow to his targets

I’d just up his attack a bit.

@rilian

1. Horghall - add -34% mana slow to all targets

I like this one, would make him a viable green tank for C2P without Telluria.

@rilian

• Khagan - make him average

Yes

@rilian

• Elena - add defence (exact number shoud be calculated), make her average

Too much. Elena is OK as is.

@rilian

• Azlar - make him 250% hit + 2 turns DoT

Same, Azlar is fine.

@rilian

1. Marjana - make her DoT 2 turns

Marjana is good as is.

@rilian

• Thorne - add ice def down 34% (lower than Frida).

Way too strong

@rilian

1. Isarnia - add some def.

Ok

[rilian]

@solipsism

Average mana is a non-starter.

Do not agree. Rigard now beats Vivica in every level. Even if Vivica will be average, she will be worse than Ariel.

@solipsism

Leo is OK. Giving him like 400% damage seems fair.

Maybe. But Joon is better.

@solipsism

I think this undermines riposte a bit too much, which has already taken a beating.

Agree.

@solipsism

I’d make her fast but the costume would be OP then.

Fast Domitia is exactly Seshat.

@solipsism

Too much.

I do not think than adding a little bit of defence is too much.

@solipsism

Marjana is good as is.

For ONLY red sniper she must be stronger. If her DoT will be 2 turns, she will be way better anti-Telly machine.

@solipsism

Way too strong

Why? -34% vs Ice is lower than -54% Frida and Arthur. And Thorne will not have other features of this heroes.

[solipsism]

@rilian

Do not agree. Rigard now beats Vivica in every level. Even if Vivica will be average, she will be worse than Ariel.

Rigard with costume also beats Kunchen, a 5 star HOTM on offense. If anything you’d balance by nerfing the far and away best 4 star in the game (I wouldn’t though).

Average Vivica would be close to a wash with Ariel. Average Vivica with costume would be just ridiculous, charging in 9 tiles with a lvl 5 mana troop.

@rilian

Fast Domitia is exactly Seshat.

Right- but the goal should be to make vanilla heroes usable, not to make them as good as the most elite heroes in the game.

@rilian

I do not think than adding a little bit of defence is too much.

I’m fine with the defense, but making Elena average would be too strong. Making slow heroes average is one of the biggest buffs you can do, since it now makes 9 tiles possible.

@rilian

For ONLY red sniper she must be stronger. If her DoT will be 2 turns, she will be way better anti-Telly machine.

So my theory here is- I’m not F2P or C2P, have tons of non season 1 heroes…if I still use a S1 hero on raids regularly, they don’t need to be buffed. They are at least servicable. Marjana falls into this category.

The heroes that need rebalance are the ones that can’t even compete in diamond, like Horghall.

@rilian

Why? -34% vs Ice is lower than -54% Frida and Arthur. And Thorne will not have other features of this heroes.

Even with his laughable attack stat, Thorne hits 3 targets really hard. That’s a strong feature in and of itself. With this change, Thorne would now beat King Arthur and Master Lepus imo.

Better change would just be to balance his stats so he hits harder.

[rilian]

@solipsism

Average Vivica with costume would be just ridiculous, charging in 9 tiles with a lvl 5 mana troop.

With costume - agree. But without costume Vivica seems underwhelming now.

@solipsism

Right- but the goal should be to make vanilla heroes usable, not to make them as good as the most elite heroes in the game.

They should now be as good as most. They should be only slightly worse, and you should not ascend dupe Seshat over Domitia (but should ascend first Seshat, of course).

@solipsism

if I still use a S1 hero on raids regularly, they don’t need to be buffed. They are at least servicable.

If they will release a HoTM red sniper - why whale will use Marjana anymore?
Now Marjana have underwhelming attack, underwhelming sp. attack power, and only color saves her (only one red sniper).

@solipsism

The heroes that need rebalance are the ones that can’t even compete in diamond, like Horghall.

Horghall needs a huge buff, like Atomos. Not slightly rebalance.

@solipsism

Even with his laughable attack stat, Thorne hits 3 targets really hard.

I will prefer to reduce his special attack a little bit and add an elemental defence debuff.

[solipsism]

@rilian

If they will release a HoTM red sniper - why whale will use Marjana anymore?
Now Marjana have underwhelming attack, underwhelming sp. attack power, and only color saves her (only one red sniper).

So again, this is just “as designed” in my opinion. It would be the same as dark, where F2P/C2P use Sartana and whales use Seshat. The HoTM is clearly superior, but if you had to use Sartana it’s not like you’re at an overwhelming disadvantage.

@rilian

They should now be as good as most. They should be only slightly worse, and you should not ascend dupe Seshat over Domitia (but should ascend first Seshat, of course).

Seshat is not just a HoTM, she’s a premium, top-tier HoTM. If you make S1 heroes like Domitia just slightly worse, you’ve also made her better than most event heroes/HoTM.

How would this fit into the business model that the game is built on?

[rilian]

@solipsism

Seshat is not just a HoTM, she’s a premium, top-tier HoTM.

I think there should not be “top-tier” and “underwhelming by design” HoTMs. All HoTMs should be upgraded to look equal and slightly better than S1.

Why Sartana should be better than Thoth-Amun? This is also will not fit into their business model AFAIK)

@solipsism

So again, this is just “as designed” in my opinion.

Maybe. But Marjana has worst attack stat even in vanilla sniper world. So, she need something to compensate this. And update her HoT for 2 turns will make her more unique and firey for me.

And then she and GM will be like Joon and Drake now.

[FraVit93]

#Ω

#OldHeroesMatters

Every month more and more heroes are losing their jobs as they simply can’t keep up with our times.
Help older heroes getting the spot they deserve, ask for balance patches.