On reading and responding to a related topic about Raids - the much debated (and debatable) issue of ‘cup dropping’.
(Link - here )
I feel I have an inkling as to the underlying cause of some of the frustrations and the behaviour that results.
The Problem
It’s the simple matter that (unlike most other aspects of the game, and most other well balanced games worth their salt) Raids actually offer you diminishing returns for increased difficulty. In every other aspect of the game (maps; quests; special events; wanted missions) an increase in effort and difficulty generates a better reward. Not so for Raids.
As you progress in the Raids it (naturally) gets harder. The effect is that you lose cups each time you lose an encounter. Your increased level exposes you to more powerful attacks on your outpost which loses you resources. Your rate of filling hero wanted missions drops drastically… and all of this is payment for what end up being far more frustrating encounters.
Are we then surprised that most sane people would either play them less, or would retreat back to a state where their reward rate is more on a par with their perceived effort invested?
The Solution:
2 possible approaches here: (1) Preferred: Increase the quality of Hero Wanted rewards for higher cup bands.
As you grow in cups and face more difficult opponents, your rate of filling your hero wanted quest drops… but can still be considered worthwhile by giving increased chance of decent loot when you do get to cash one in (Epic Hero or Troop summons and/or higher tier loot / chance of ascension items). The frustration would be worth it for the better rewards, and there will be far less incentive to drop cups.
OR
(2) Decouple direct game rewards from PvP.
The rewards you get from PvP encounters should only be relevant to PvP encounters. (Some thought would need to go in to what such rewards could be without drastically changing PvP game balance… but a simple start is more ego-related items such as Avatar decorations). Alternatively cups / ego is the only reward.
Then only those who are interested in proving themselves in the PvP arena will take part.
While PvP is linked to rewards that affect normal game progress, and the reward is not seen as worth the effort, you invite exploits, or simply put people off playing that aspect… so I think some form of change is necessary (unless of course the view is that cup dropping is simply not a problem).
Please stay on topic in response. If you want to comment about cup dropping, respond to the other thread linked above. Please comment on the merits / validity of this idea without straying in to the evils or merits of cup dropping.
The only problem I see with Raids is that it doesn’t give experience neither rewards, also another thing, way stronger opponents should have a 50/9 cup instead of something ridiculous like 11/49.
And last but not least, cups should have its role, you should be able to unlock something or have some ability to do something when you get X amount of cups, I don’t know what but just saying, at the moment they are useless.
What do you mean with stronger opponents? Team power? The cup scores needs to be based on cup difference not power difference or the entire system would not work at all.
The main reason people have trouble in raids is counter-intuitively that attack is much easier than defense. Someone wins a few fights against bigger cup players with lower power, usually players that had just raised in cups by winning attacks. Their own cups rise a lot from that. They reach the 280 cup range of much higher players. Maybe someone who has been offline for 10 hours. Has lost a lot of defenses and dropped 300 cups.
So the result is they are say at 200 cups above their average and the other one is 300 below her average and put there a 200 cup difference, you might be looking at a 700 difference in their average cup amount even though the current difference is just 200. but the difference in power is probably huge. Luckily you can always reroll to get an easier target.
Raids do give rewards… in the form of resources and hero wanted quests… but it’s the fact the rewards do not scale with difficulty that is the issue, so people are inclined to game the system.
If, as you suggest, they gave experience, with defeats of higher foes (in terms of team power, not cups) providing more and weaker teams providing little or none then that also sets a positive incentive to keep going onwards and upwards in the face of tougher opposition.
I also agree that the level of cups should give you positive rewards / incentives. It’s pretty much what I was saying. This will again give an incentive to see how far you can go instead of just gaming the system… and also gives more meaningful return for those investing the time, effort (and indeed often frustration) in improving their cup level.
It’s a question of whether the rewards should be focussed just on PvP play / benefits, or whether they should add to your progress in the game outside of PvP. If the latter then you definitely need the rewards to escalate with effort or you absolutely guarantee inviting gaming of the system.
People surely treasure their trophies way more, but you increase (again) the gap between top players and low players.
So i guess is a no no.
Player chart is already relevant only for player, you do not gain anything from that. And you can still fill the hero chest even if you lost as long as you take down some heroes.
So… is it really a change?
For #1: Depends very much on how they implement it, doesn’t it?
If implemented like the rewards were done for the last event, then ‘the rich getting richer’ is the sure outcome. For the record, I didn’t like the way the rewards were structured for the last event (where the vast majority of players only get a ‘thank you for taking part’ token and the extremely few (who actually don’t really need the rewards) got the useful stuff.
If I were to implement #1, I’d have a steady increase in quality of base items you get from Hero wanted missions at every 200 cup band, and for each increase in band you increase a CHANCE multiplyer of getting top items (such as Epic summons and/or ascension items). This means you don’t have to reach the top to improve your loot (and your chance of getting top loot), but only need to improve your standing to a higher tier.
Most players will find an equilibrium in a given tier and that will be the quality of rewards (and % chance of top items) they’re stuck with - but still better than not having played raid at all… and also offers no real incentive for dropping cups. (If you drop cups, you go down to a lower loot tier, so while you fill your hero wanted chest a bit quicker, it won’t be as worthwhile loot).
For #2:
This is really an option to keep it ‘pure’ PvP. At the moment the ‘pureness’ is (supposedly) sullied by people dropping cups for PvE loot chances. The #2 option is there if the Devs don’t want to mess with the loot percentages, but want to keep the PvP community happy with the Raid dynamic.
If it is #2 option, I’m unlikely to take part because I’m not sold on the Raid mechanic, and can’t be bothered about the ego side… but thought it worth mentioning as an option.
The cost of ‘doing nothing’ (keeping the status quo)? Live with the cup dropping… because it won’t stop with the incentives and system as it currently is.
