Raids: fair or unfair?

There are slimey things sticking to the underside of rocks which are smarter than the defense AI. There are ■■■■■■■■ rocks which can outperform the AI on a good day.
Though it’s fair to say it can sometimes have a genius for targetting the precise hero you least want it to over and over on a bad raiding day. And other days it doesn’t and repeatedly picks the worst choice from the defense perspective.

Ideally, you would think that it adds your average gem matching per color, plus a luck die, plus your power level… With the luck die maybe being a d20… At least that way, when someone challenges you, it should be a relatively close approximation of actually facing you…

If you want an advantage from long win runs, you can multiply the above with a modifier that for every 25 wins, it averages your average top five wins with your average top five losses… And then as one of your losses drops out of the last 25 fights, your average is 5 wins to 4 losses…and so on…if you can maintain a win run that long…

Raids are never fair, you always almost beat them then before you could use your heros’ power, they destroy you. I hate this game sometimes because of the raids.

You are right, they are heavily in your favor.

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Hope you will be lucky, because in my lvl 34 have still no hero with 5* I have only 4heros, but in raids I get to fight only teams with 5 heros from 98%, it cost me ton of food to reroll to find team with only 1 hero5* in team, if I am lucky to find. So I call this game it self very unfair.

Raids are unfair and because of rewards… Please SG don’t give daily summon token as reward in every chest we open!!! Give ETT or EHT because chances for summonig good heroes are so poor anyway!!!:triumph::triumph::triumph::triumph:

I’m not sure if anyone above touched on this before (and if so I apologize for beating a dead horse) but from a game design standpoint the Raid system is not unfair or broken, but it is an excellent example of a poorly-designed game mechanic.

The issue that provokes players to post threads like this over and over (and prompted me to create an account and post), is that Raids use the same opponent attack mechanic as PVE battles. Defender’s special attacks charge over a certain amount of time and are increased with damage, while the player’s specials increase based on number of matched tiles. Additionally, since the defender’s attack methodology is a black box (meaning it isn’t based on a board the attacker can see, but on some unknown algorithm), the player gets the impression that the defenders are attacking based on character power or HP, instead of on their position in relation to the board like an attacker does. A defending team’s center player will be statistically more likely to absorb a majority of the attacking team’s attacks, since they take up 3/7ths of the board, but the defenders attacks do not seem to focus on the center character in an attacking team.

Long story short - the rules are different for an attacker and a defender.

This leads to a situation where two exactly-matched teams would never fight each other to a draw, because a “dry” board (one that has an even distribution of colors and no opportunities for combos) would underpower the attacker and the defender’s specials would charge first, or a board with a decent number of combos would give the attacker the advantage that many people talk about in this thread. If you are wondering why the attackers have an advantage when there are combos it is because combos count as multiple normal attacks, something the defending team’s players never do. If the rules were the same for attackers and defenders, they would occasionally hit your attackers multiple times at once.

All of this can lead to frustration on the player’s part because they see identical characters on the defending team consistently being more powerful than their own attackers. This is because Raids are PVE with more powerful enemies instead of a “PVP lite” with computer-controlled defenders. PVP would require the same rules to be applied to both sides - the same rules of special charging and attack targeting. PVP would imply that the defending team uses the same algorithms or methodology to attack. Raids are not this - raids are a different PVE and you are actually doing two totally separate things: building a defense team based on one set of rules and attacking with a team that follows another set of rules.

It doesn’t help that the suggested way to measure an opposing team’s power is the same for attackers and defenders, despite having two different mechanics. This is why this thread is full of people suggesting you ignore power and measure the team. This is the equivalent of comparing pitchers and hitters in baseball by salary and not by RBI and ERA. If that is confusing and you are saying “how would you even compare pitchers and hitters using RBI and ERA” then you understand the issue of using the same metric to compare defense and attacking teams.

Here’s the thing - I build and work with complicated systems for a living and completely understand why Raids were built this way. Writing a 3x matching algorithm that can both match a human’s skill and run efficiently is not easy. You can see how poor the built-in matching is when letting a level run automatically - easy combos and multiples are missed all the time, and the computer prefers direct attacks to charging specials, and focusing or ignoring enemies is far beyond what it is built for. Making raids a balanced, equal PVP system would be really, really hard unless they became real-time PVP instead of player-vs-computer.

So what is the solution? If changing the raiding mechanic is unlikely to happen, maybe making it more obvious that defense and attack are different would help. Place the defenders behind a visual barrier or inside a fort to make the difference more obvious, add some kind of additional “attack charge” meter to make the defender’s normal attacks more disconnected from the attackers.

Oh, and change the way trophies are presented and calculated - this doesn’t require massive rebuilding, just a “rebranding” - mostly to do away with the implicit but illusory trophy “market”. Players have the impression that defenders and attackers are exchanging trophy values and the imbalance makes that seem unfair. Changing this to a cost/reward system instead of an exchange would help a lot. So if your raid is against a tower or castle, you assume that beating the defenders will net you a reward. But losing against someone you attacked is less jarring if instead there was a “cost” to the raid. So now if a raid is +20/-20 it makes it seem like the defenders take $20 from you for losing or you take $20 from them if you win. If instead the raid cost $20 but netted $40 if you won, it has the same effect without the problems of exchange - you can sell it as costing the player 20 cups to transport their troops to the enemy tower, feed them, and carry out the raid. If they win they get 40 cups, which is really just 20 additional over your cost, but it seems like a bigger reward and if you lose it doesn’t imply that the opposing player gets anything from your raid. For defenders you present a separate unconnected reward for winning or losing much like you get now, just with better storytelling - just a single “you got 30 cups from the bodies of the defeated attackers, or the attackers stole 40 cups from your treasury”. The biggest change in messaging would be to not imply that there is an exchange in trophies, because that implies a market for trophies or a limited supply of trophies that does not exist. Losing a revenge raid is much less frustrating when you know that it costs you money to move your troops.

This would also allow for later additional monetization and expansion with defensive tower expansions or the integration of items into raids without making the mechanic seem broken. A siege engine item or meteors brought along to raid a castle make sense IF you know that the defenders are using a different mechanic.

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There a wast of time, it totally depends on what boards u get. Of course we have zero power over that . Put up what ever team u like but if u don’t get the boards u loss… over and over. They would be more fun if there was some sort of continuity.

Raids are fun and tbh I enjoy raiding more on my alt than on my main. This is my full roster on my alt:

I’ve reached platinum tier with these heroes with utter pride and I usually hover somewhere around 1500 trophies.

Deep roster is very, very useful for raiding. When I started playing this game, I didn’t know anything about color stacking and raiding strategies and usually were running my best (rainbow) team on raids and yeah, I was losing s lot lot.

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I love raids like I love syphilis, but there is this chest thingy…

Some days, they cause me to curse more than is healthy. Today, I made 17th globally with my lame rainbow team of Rigard, Magni, Ares, Joon and Lianna. Some days it is good. And I could put a better defense out there, but why make me work harder when I don’t really care one bit about cups; I just want the chest. I actually hate when people lose to me and give me cups. Ain’t no prize, as long as I stay in diamond, good enough.

Yes, it is a lot of luck and generally unfair. And I hate that I am constantly matched against better teams and have to waste food rerolling. But use some strategy with your revenges. Save those easy wins for after you have 30 out of 40, and your cup count is high. Find a sweet spot defense like I have (Guin is only a war accessory, not raid defense) . Curse as much as I do, but do it more quietly. And sometimes lose to better teams between chests to make the next chest easier.

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Raid is perfectly fair. My 34xx tp beat 4xxx tp with the help of a correct team setup and fairly good board.
Furthermore, attacking a higher power team earn something of +45 / -15. There is nothing to lose but much to gain.

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Have these ideas been presented to the developers yet? I also have an issue with the raids. The enemy’s mana fills up way to fast at a rate of about 2:1. Maybe 1.5:1 would seem more reasonable to give a team a little better chance. I understand a lot if it has to do with luck of the board but when you’re losing 35 to 40 trophies at a time to an opponent with a team power of 200 less than yours, that doesn’t seem fair to me. I’ve been beaten by far inferior opponents just because I wasn’t able to get a power shot off before I got obliterated. I’ve been knocked down a tier because of that and it took a good minute to get back up to where I was.

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Not sure this is the right thread for your post. Perhaps @zephyr1 will consider if it should be moved here instead

Raids: fair or unfair?

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That works, merged, thanks! :heart_decoration:

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I find Raids to be the most hateful “gaming” experience in 31 years of playing games.

I’m the guy that completed Rick Dangerous 1 & 2 on the Amiga 500 in the early '90s - look them up kids, they were ridiculously hard - but understandably hard and could be beaten.

In that regard, I do think Raids are unfair at worst and simply baffling at best.

I have read the guides on this forum, I have read most of the way through this thread. I adjust my team members based on the opposing side, all of that.

From playing Raids, I have come to the conclusion that how many cups you have doesn’t matter, your Team strength doesn’t matter and the out of 61 win/loss indicator doesn’t matter - it is all down to the luck of the draw on the board.

And even then, what happens in the raid makes no sense. The following literally just happened to me -

Raiding against a player with Richard in the front position, a 5* character at level 70 in the 3rd ascension.

In the first couple of moves on the board, I had hit him enough to charge his special, he lets rip and from left to right on my team
Fire hero loses 185 of their 1128 energy
Dark hero loses 548 of their 1043 energy
Light hero loses 294 of their 1031 energy
Green hero loses ALL 855 of their energy - this is also my healer
Green hero loses 304 of thier 1139 energy

Why did my healer get his face smashed in when the green character next door lost only a third-ish of thier energy. Needless to say I lost that battle having lost the ability to heal my team.

It’s not down to the healers’ defense stats either as on the Revenge Raid, Richard hit out with his Cloud Hammer again and that character only lost 545 of thier 855 energy.

I nearly smashed my phone in frustration the other day when I saw I had been raided, lost 40 cups, went to revenge it - the win/loss ratio said 11/40, the team was over 300 points weaker than mine and the player had several hundred less cups than me - utterly destroyed my team.

I revenged it again, this time the win/loss said 28/33 - again I was annihilated, I couldn’t even knock out one of his team.

Final chance of revenge and the win/loss said 34/27, so as I read it, this ratio finally shifts into his favour and again I was smashed to bits within a few moves.

I don’t understand how to read the match-up screen to know if it’s going to be a close battle or not. As I said above, I don’t think any of it matters, it is the luck of the board, which takes the skill away, imho. Every time I think I’ve understood the match up screen, the fight just goes the other way.

I’m not opposed to hard games or hard challenges - I got Sky High on Veteran in Modern Warfare and beat Bayonetta on Infinite Climax difficilty - but nothing baffles, annoys, frustrates and makes me ■■■ as much as Raids have.

In that regard, I suppose, Small Giant, I salute you.

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The out of 61 win/loss is an indication of the number of cups that you will win or lose. It has nothing to do with the odds of winning. The ratio changed for each revenge because you lost so the gap in cups between you got smaller. The first raid you lost 40 cups and opponent gained 40. If you had won you would have gained 11 and opponent would have lost 11. Second raid the gap was smaller (since you lost the first) so the ratio changed.

Richard hits 3 heroes with his special. How did he hit all five of yours?

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Perhaps the damage to the first two was from the regular hits from the opposition then, but still, Richard takes out the healer in one hit in the first match but not the second?

Thanks for clearing up the 61 cup thingie, as I suspected, it is not an indication of how the battle will go.

It is strange that Richard could do that much damage to a green, which he should be weak against. In my experience my Richard does typically between 5-600 damage on main target and about half that on the ones beside it. Lower end when attacking green and sometimes below 500.

Were there any defense down debuffs in play at the time? Or attack buffs for opponent? Those would boost Richard’s attack on you. Or you may have been the victim of a random critical hit on the green the first time.

You can use the opponent team’s TP as a very rough (and not very accurate) guide for success but really it’s down to experience. Some heroes work better against certain opponents and worse against others. Some heroes work better in defense team than others. Some are just horrible on attacking team. Figuring all that out is half the fun of raids. Guinevere is the acknowledged Queen of defense tanks but no one uses her for attack.

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Special attacks and slash attacks are colorless.

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