Raids: fair or unfair?


#829

[quote=“Anaea, post:828, topic:86”]o we in fact know that the cup difference is “locked” at the beginning of the fight?
[/quote]

I’ve seen the cup rewards change enough by the end of a fight to “know” that cups are not locked at the beginning of a raid. I also, when I see that someone has failed an attack on my Keep, I routinely take a peek at my watchtower and clear it out while they attempt their next attack. They get zero materials.


#830

I’m not offering an opinion on whether they lock in cups. I’m saying that there’s no logical way someone shed 283 cups while another raid was ongoing.

If they’re even-cups matches, you stand to lose 30 cups a match. That means losing 10 straight matches while a single other raid is in progress.

The maximum pairabe fight is a 300 cup delta, which loses you 51 cups per fight. That means losing 6 straight maximum-pairing-differential fights while a single other raid is in progress.

The maximum cup loss per fight is -60, and that’s with losing to someone 711+ cups lower than you. The algorithm won’t match you with someone 711 cups lower, so it would have to be a revenge raid. If we use this and cut the number of near-simutaneous losses to 5, that requires a person getting hit by 5 revenge raids, all at -700ish cups, over the space of a single other raid.

Unless you’re in the top 100, I doubt you get paired into 6-10 raids an hour, let alone in 5 minutes.

So no, my guess is without a starting point of where to look in the logs for such an error, the devs won’t be prioritizing resources to this. I could be wrong, of course. I’m not an SG employee, so I have no clue what they’d ultimately decide to do.


#831

I completely agree, regarding the unfairness of raids. Prior to the new update i was alnost to 2700 cups. With a raid maybe once a week. Then the update came and suddenly i am raided 15-20 times a day maybe more. I am now down to 2300, cups and going down. I cannot win anything. Even exceedingly low raiders are killing me before i can even get a shot fired off. The strong team of 4125, that always won, cannot take even a simple 3500 team. The raider is firinf firing one right after another and im dead. Something definately has changed and not for ťhe better. This needs to be looked into. All of my and i mean everyone is saying the same thing. So many raids all of a sudden. And they cant beat them. Please check into this and make the raids at least fair for both sides. Thank you for taking the time to listen.


#832

That post you are replying to is from May of 2017. As you can see, people have been complaining about raids off and on for quite a long time.

It’s not surprising that you’re getting raided a lot more after the update than you did before. Lots of fairly inactive players are suddenly getting back into the game, raiding, and checking things out with the new version. It’ll probably quiet back down a bit in a few weeks.

If you genuinely think there’s some bug that’s affecting you when you raid others, but isn’t affecting any of the 15+ people a day who are raiding you and are apparently able to win, I’d encourage you to take some video and make a bug report.


#834

Pretty simple - if you want easier raids, make a weak defense team and your cup count will be low. This will mean you will be fighting weak teams really often.

If you want to climb higher in the rankings (mainly for the loot tiers), suck it up.


#835

The algorithms used for this part of the game are way off. I’m constantly getting slaughtered by opponents several hundred points weaker than me. Whether i am on offense or defense.


#836

You really can’t tell how strong or weak someone’s offense is, because you never get to see it. All you ever see is their defense.

There are several helpful guides out there for raiding. I’d recommend you read through them, and try out some of the ideas and suggestions. You’ll find that it is very possible to beat teams significantly stronger than yours with the right strategy and tactics.


#837

The thing I’ve been wondering about is how well does the game aquit itself when the AI is basically suppose to be you? Does it go strictly by power of fighters or the team? Does it have a luck die? Does it attempt to mimic your play style at all? So many times I when I play a revenge, I easily kick people’s butts that beat me when they attacked me. Am I REALLY that much better of a player than the AI?


#838

There are slimey things sticking to the underside of rocks which are smarter than the defense AI. There are retarded rocks which can outperform the AI on a good day.
Though it’s fair to say it can sometimes have a genius for targetting the precise hero you least want it to over and over on a bad raiding day. And other days it doesn’t and repeatedly picks the worst choice from the defense perspective.


#839

Ideally, you would think that it adds your average gem matching per color, plus a luck die, plus your power level… With the luck die maybe being a d20… At least that way, when someone challenges you, it should be a relatively close approximation of actually facing you…


#840

If you want an advantage from long win runs, you can multiply the above with a modifier that for every 25 wins, it averages your average top five wins with your average top five losses… And then as one of your losses drops out of the last 25 fights, your average is 5 wins to 4 losses…and so on…if you can maintain a win run that long…


#842

Raids are never fair, you always almost beat them then before you could use your heros’ power, they destroy you. I hate this game sometimes because of the raids.


#843

You are right, they are heavily in your favor.


#844

Hope you will be lucky, because in my lvl 34 have still no hero with 5* I have only 4heros, but in raids I get to fight only teams with 5 heros from 98%, it cost me ton of food to reroll to find team with only 1 hero5* in team, if I am lucky to find. So I call this game it self very unfair.


#845

Raids are unfair and because of rewards… Please SG don’t give daily summon token as reward in every chest we open!!! Give ETT or EHT because chances for summonig good heroes are so poor anyway!!!:triumph::triumph::triumph::triumph:


#846

I’m not sure if anyone above touched on this before (and if so I apologize for beating a dead horse) but from a game design standpoint the Raid system is not unfair or broken, but it is an excellent example of a poorly-designed game mechanic.

The issue that provokes players to post threads like this over and over (and prompted me to create an account and post), is that Raids use the same opponent attack mechanic as PVE battles. Defender’s special attacks charge over a certain amount of time and are increased with damage, while the player’s specials increase based on number of matched tiles. Additionally, since the defender’s attack methodology is a black box (meaning it isn’t based on a board the attacker can see, but on some unknown algorithm), the player gets the impression that the defenders are attacking based on character power or HP, instead of on their position in relation to the board like an attacker does. A defending team’s center player will be statistically more likely to absorb a majority of the attacking team’s attacks, since they take up 3/7ths of the board, but the defenders attacks do not seem to focus on the center character in an attacking team.

Long story short - the rules are different for an attacker and a defender.

This leads to a situation where two exactly-matched teams would never fight each other to a draw, because a “dry” board (one that has an even distribution of colors and no opportunities for combos) would underpower the attacker and the defender’s specials would charge first, or a board with a decent number of combos would give the attacker the advantage that many people talk about in this thread. If you are wondering why the attackers have an advantage when there are combos it is because combos count as multiple normal attacks, something the defending team’s players never do. If the rules were the same for attackers and defenders, they would occasionally hit your attackers multiple times at once.

All of this can lead to frustration on the player’s part because they see identical characters on the defending team consistently being more powerful than their own attackers. This is because Raids are PVE with more powerful enemies instead of a “PVP lite” with computer-controlled defenders. PVP would require the same rules to be applied to both sides - the same rules of special charging and attack targeting. PVP would imply that the defending team uses the same algorithms or methodology to attack. Raids are not this - raids are a different PVE and you are actually doing two totally separate things: building a defense team based on one set of rules and attacking with a team that follows another set of rules.

It doesn’t help that the suggested way to measure an opposing team’s power is the same for attackers and defenders, despite having two different mechanics. This is why this thread is full of people suggesting you ignore power and measure the team. This is the equivalent of comparing pitchers and hitters in baseball by salary and not by RBI and ERA. If that is confusing and you are saying “how would you even compare pitchers and hitters using RBI and ERA” then you understand the issue of using the same metric to compare defense and attacking teams.

Here’s the thing - I build and work with complicated systems for a living and completely understand why Raids were built this way. Writing a 3x matching algorithm that can both match a human’s skill and run efficiently is not easy. You can see how poor the built-in matching is when letting a level run automatically - easy combos and multiples are missed all the time, and the computer prefers direct attacks to charging specials, and focusing or ignoring enemies is far beyond what it is built for. Making raids a balanced, equal PVP system would be really, really hard unless they became real-time PVP instead of player-vs-computer.

So what is the solution? If changing the raiding mechanic is unlikely to happen, maybe making it more obvious that defense and attack are different would help. Place the defenders behind a visual barrier or inside a fort to make the difference more obvious, add some kind of additional “attack charge” meter to make the defender’s normal attacks more disconnected from the attackers.

Oh, and change the way trophies are presented and calculated - this doesn’t require massive rebuilding, just a “rebranding” - mostly to do away with the implicit but illusory trophy “market”. Players have the impression that defenders and attackers are exchanging trophy values and the imbalance makes that seem unfair. Changing this to a cost/reward system instead of an exchange would help a lot. So if your raid is against a tower or castle, you assume that beating the defenders will net you a reward. But losing against someone you attacked is less jarring if instead there was a “cost” to the raid. So now if a raid is +20/-20 it makes it seem like the defenders take $20 from you for losing or you take $20 from them if you win. If instead the raid cost $20 but netted $40 if you won, it has the same effect without the problems of exchange - you can sell it as costing the player 20 cups to transport their troops to the enemy tower, feed them, and carry out the raid. If they win they get 40 cups, which is really just 20 additional over your cost, but it seems like a bigger reward and if you lose it doesn’t imply that the opposing player gets anything from your raid. For defenders you present a separate unconnected reward for winning or losing much like you get now, just with better storytelling - just a single “you got 30 cups from the bodies of the defeated attackers, or the attackers stole 40 cups from your treasury”. The biggest change in messaging would be to not imply that there is an exchange in trophies, because that implies a market for trophies or a limited supply of trophies that does not exist. Losing a revenge raid is much less frustrating when you know that it costs you money to move your troops.

This would also allow for later additional monetization and expansion with defensive tower expansions or the integration of items into raids without making the mechanic seem broken. A siege engine item or meteors brought along to raid a castle make sense IF you know that the defenders are using a different mechanic.


#847

There a wast of time, it totally depends on what boards u get. Of course we have zero power over that . Put up what ever team u like but if u don’t get the boards u loss… over and over. They would be more fun if there was some sort of continuity.


#848

Raids are fun and tbh I enjoy raiding more on my alt than on my main. This is my full roster on my alt:

I’ve reached platinum tier with these heroes with utter pride and I usually hover somewhere around 1500 trophies.

Deep roster is very, very useful for raiding. When I started playing this game, I didn’t know anything about color stacking and raiding strategies and usually were running my best (rainbow) team on raids and yeah, I was losing s lot lot.


#849

I love raids like I love syphilis, but there is this chest thingy…

Some days, they cause me to curse more than is healthy. Today, I made 17th globally with my lame rainbow team of Rigard, Magni, Ares, Joon and Lianna. Some days it is good. And I could put a better defense out there, but why make me work harder when I don’t really care one bit about cups; I just want the chest. I actually hate when people lose to me and give me cups. Ain’t no prize, as long as I stay in diamond, good enough.

Yes, it is a lot of luck and generally unfair. And I hate that I am constantly matched against better teams and have to waste food rerolling. But use some strategy with your revenges. Save those easy wins for after you have 30 out of 40, and your cup count is high. Find a sweet spot defense like I have (Guin is only a war accessory, not raid defense) . Curse as much as I do, but do it more quietly. And sometimes lose to better teams between chests to make the next chest easier.


#850

Raid is perfectly fair. My 34xx tp beat 4xxx tp with the help of a correct team setup and fairly good board.
Furthermore, attacking a higher power team earn something of +45 / -15. There is nothing to lose but much to gain.