Raid System Completely Broken

First, let me say I love E&P. The missions, the quests, the challenge events, the alliances, titans, etc. provide players plenty of different things to do. However, ever since I started playing I felt the Raid system was completely broken. In the beginning, it was just something I could do to get extra food or metal to level up heroes or build the next building. I didn’t care about competing for the most trophies as I knew my heroes weren’t strong enough. It didn’t really matter to me so I could largely ignore the obvious flaws. Then in the infinite wisdom of SG, they made raids a central part of POV. Now suddenly winning raids wasn’t just a way to gamble on getting new resources. I had to win in order to get rare ascension items offered in few other places without spending piles of cash. This new importance of raids means those flaws are now glaring issues.

Every issue I will mention here I sent directly SG Support, back in the good old days when you could actually contact their support. The only response I ever received said simply “Please post this in our forums so our fanboys will blindly defend us so we don’t have to do anything.” That may not be a direct quote but close enough to the intention of what they said. On a side note, imagine any other company used this tactic for customer service…you go to McDonalds and your burger is burned solid hockey puck. You take it up to the counter to exchange for something edible and they respond, “I’m sorry but you must first post on our forums. If enough customers agree the burger is burned bad enough we will look into exchanging it for your. Good luck.” You buy a new TV and it doesn’t work. You contact their customer support and they respond with “Please post your issues on our forums, if you are lucky some random person can answer your question. If not, maybe our dev team will see your post and answer. Good luck.” You want to return something to Walmart, nope can’t do it. First you have to post on their forums and get enough people to agree that their is an issue with what you bought. No one would tolerate this behavior. Yet ,Small Giant treats its paying customers this way and many accept it. Sad. Anyone who pays for literally anything deserves better.

Now back to the broken raid system. It is broken from beginning to end, and every aspect of it.

1. Matchmaking

A. What is suppose to happen.  According to Small Giant, players are matched by trophy count, power is not considered at all.  Let's start there.  How stupid is that?  It literally rewards those who do not play raids.  If you do not play raids but build a 4000 power team, you will be matched against low power players guaranteeing victory. What kind of system rewards inactivity?  A broken one.

In addition, it is easy to manipulate. If someone is like me doesn’t care for raids outside of POV, you can simply win your POV raids and swap out to 1-star or max trainers until the next POV, consistently losing your trophies to again be matched against easier opponents. What kind of system would allow such loopholes? You guessed it. A broken one.

I would recommend simply averaging the power of the last 3 offense winning teams. If you have to win the match-up it is difficult to manipulate. Using the average power of the last 3 teams will also account for different teams that may be used to beat specific heroes or color-stacked teams.

B. What really happens. Of course, that is only what is supposed to happen according to the devs but it is not what happens. I tracked 300 raid matches. For each match-up, I add the number of trophies I could win to the the number I could lose. A perfectly matched team, according to what they say, would come up as 0 (if I could win 30 trophies or lose 30 trophies to an opponent, take 30 + (-30) = 0). If you think of a bell curve 0 would be the exact middle and should be the most frequently seen number in match-ups based on trophy count.

Now, obviously, finding an exact match who is offline might be difficult. But you would expect if matchups are made by trophy count, that you would be matched with those close to your trophy count most frequently. It didn’t happen. Over 300 raids, my breakdown was:

+/-0-10 trophies = 18.6% of the time

+/-11- 20 trophies = 24.9% of the time

+/-21 - 30 trophies = 26.3% of the time

+/-31 - 40 trophies = 26.8% of the time

+/- 41+ trophies - 3.4% of the time

I was actually matched with teams 31 to 40 trophy differential most frequently. The most extreme trophy differential I faced was where I could win 55 trophies and lose 3 trophies (52 trophy differential). How is that possible if you are matching teams based on trophy count? The short answer is it can’t and they don’t. At best, match-making is completely random and at worst, slanted to extremes. Either way the matchmaking does not work as the devs claim.

I should mention I started the experiment at 2000 trophies, throughout I dropped down as low as 1900 and made it as high as 2300 before being knocked back down. The majority of the time, I was between 2000 and 2100 trophies. I would estimate the majority of players fall in the platinum and gold arenas depending on how long they have played. I mention this because being at an extreme end of trophies as either a new player or a dominant player could influence your match -making prospects but I should not of been impacted this way.

2. Hero Cards are Fake

A. The game suggests you review hero cards prior to raiding. The problem, the hero cards are completely inaccurate. In a raid, your opponent receives a significant buff on attack, defense, health, and their special power. This may be well known to long time players but I saw no mention of it any where. Below are some pictures snapped before the raid began and then snapped during the raid. Every stat improved magically. 1) Why the buff? 2) Why isn’t the buffed stats shown in the cards? Clearly, the hero cards do not reflect real stats and are therefor broken.

B. Hero card stats are not reflected in battle. I have now benched Sophia and stripped her of her emblems. Her card makes her one of the best 4-star snipers with 345% special attack. However, the damage dealt in a raid never reflected this. In fact the damage from weaker hitters (card showing 205%) was frequently stronger. Now I didn’t know at the time my opponents were secretly buffed so maybe the above buffs are the reason for this. The hero cards are completely worthless if they don’t show what is really going to happen in a battle…or in other words they are broken.

We haven’t even started the battles yet.

3. The Starting Boards Aren’t Fair

Yes, I know there is a thread dedicated to this. Yes, I know the devs claim they are not biased against color stacking. And yes, I have evidence from my experiment showing otherwise. I tracked 150 raids using 2 blue heroes and no yellow heroes and then tracked 150 raids with 2 green heroes and no yellow heroes. You would expect 20% of each color to be the primary color on the starting board, regardless of the team make-up.

In 150 raids with 2 blue heroes:

of times blue was the primary color = 18 (12% of the time)

of times yellow was the primary color = 54 (36% of the time)

In 150 raids with 2 green heroes:

of times green was the primary color = 28 (19.6% of the time)

of times yellow was the primary color = 38 (25.3% or the time)

In 300 raids without a yellow hero, starting boards contained more yellow shields than any other color 92 times or over 50% increase of what you would expect! Clearly this is not consistent with the idea boards are not manipulated against stacking colors.

Before someone says “Why do starting boards matter?”, it matters because it impacts the amount of mana generated which impacts wins. On average, my opponents generated 1.71 special skills to every 1 I generated. On starting boards where yellow was the primary color, my opponents generated 2.2 special skills to my every 1 and conversely, when the starting boards primary color was the color of the multiple heroes I was running, my opponents only generated 1.3 maxed mana for every 1 I generated. That impacts wins and puts me at a disadvantage by increasing the mana of opponents while doing little. Again, the raid system is broken.

4. Mana Generation Yes, mana generation in raids is also broken.

Opponents generate mana 2 ways, every time they are hit by a shield and when ever they want.

First, why do they generate mana when they are hit? It makes no sense. It places an increased emphasis on bad starting boards. It also skews hero cards where average or slow mana generators are now gaining mana faster than your fast heroes if hit with a cascade. It is actually one of the aspects that makes a heroes seem over-powered because despite being average in mana generation, they act like very fast.

Secondly, what is with the magic mana your opponents generate? It causes raids to feel predetermined when suddenly a hero attacks multiple times to max their mana or several heroes pretend their was an invisible cascade to hit your wing hero with a bunch of attacks as soon as you max your mana. I have played these types of games before but never has an opponents attacks been “magical” or their specials maxed by secret, pretend attacks. Some games had both sides use the same board (my preference because it adds an element of strategy to the game) and some have a separate board that is visible so the attacks are transparent. Hiding them makes it feel like devs have a plan rather than a fair and balanced system.

5. Traits I hesitate to put this here because I don’t have the numbers to prove my point. I started to track them but with everything I was tracking it got confusing so I stopped counting how many times heroes revived, got special defense, or sprung a snake minion. My observation is that the traits happen probably close to their stated odds (20-30% of the time). However, when they activate once, it seems they fire multiple times 75% of the time. The number of times heroes revived 2-5 times in a row to max their special and fire it or for a healer to max a save them or heroes lined with 3 minion snakes is far more than should be seen by the odds.

I was going to go back a track this next but the reality is I shouldn’t have had to track any of this. The devs could easily pull-up the numbers on the backend that took me way too long to track but they chose not to and have avoided doing anything to fix the game. They are counting on players with a massive number of trophies wanting to protect the treasure trove or people’s natural instinct to defend what they like to cause enough confusion and divisiveness that they can continue not to do anything as they slowly take away even the basics such as the ability to report issues directly to someone. Read some of the threads from the beta testers about how they are treated and how little they are respected by SG. Take a real look at real problems and demand better.

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Raid matches can be +/- 300 trophies and the cups you can gain/lose is directly related to the difference in cups. In your example you were 18% matched At the lower level which you would expect to be about 20% if it is totally random which is not that far off. The top was only 3.4%. I’m guessing that is because the higher you get top the top there are less teams with higher trophy counts to chose from.

As for the hero card stats if you factor in the stats from the troops that they are using the numbers should match almost exactly. The defense also gets an extra 20% def and attack not shown anywhere.

+/-300? I have a hard time believing that. If at +55 trophies I can only lose 3. How is it possible to be +100 let alone +300.

Also, matchmaking is not random according to the game. It is based on trophies so if you say a percentage is close for random matchmaking you are proving my point.

For the cards, your are saying there are troops that improve you special skills? What troops are those and at what level? Because if you look at the difference between the cards for Jean Francois he gained 25% power on his special skill. I’m not saying your wrong, I have just never seen troops Improve special skills.

You can get only get matched with teams within +/- 300 cups of your own. Within that range is were the randomness comes in. If they are close to 300 cups higher is where you gain the most cups close to 50 per win, if they are close to 300 lower is where you can loss close to 50 cups per loss. If you are close to even the win/loss cups will be about the same. The closer you get to the top the harder it is to find matches that have a higher cup count than you.

Mana troops can add 26% attack fully leveled, level 20 troops have 24% attack so that number makes sense if they high level mana troops. They will raise the amount of damage done by damage over time heroes like JF. The damage can also be raised through emblems but that number is reflected on the card.

So preface this with: I’m not staff just a player so this is all just my understanding based on threads on the forum created by other players & my own observations :slight_smile:

1) Matchmaking

Raid matchmaking is not, based on relative levels or power. It is based on the trophy count of yourself (AT THAT TIME) and the trophy count of your prospective opponents (AT THAT TIME).

The game then draws a “pool” of enemies & you either battle or re-roll. When you get to the end of that pool, there is a brief “refreshing pause” while it gathers another pool of prospective opponents.

The “Pool” of opponents is, as abve, based on the comparative trophy counts. Your pool extends +/- 300 trophies above and below your current trophy count. I.e. if you have 2500 trophies, your pool can include opponents with 2200 -> 2800 trophies.
The trophy count is applied on a binomial distribution (which you identified) with those closer in trophy count appearing more frequently.

The Trophy win/ loss amount is also based on the comparative trophies & is (typically) a total of 61 trophies (win + loss amount). The distribution of this is binomial as well as it is linked to the comparative trophy counts. even split (+30 / -30) occurs when both you and your opponent have identical trophy amounts. Otherwise the skewing is based on the trophy count difference AT THAT TIME.


2. Hero cards are [not] fake

The difference you are seeing is the Equipped Troops. If you go to your Barracks & look at any of your troops, you’ll see that they have different stat modifiers (all have attack & defence).

Troop benefits are NOT shown on the hero card but are applied to the hero in game.

So if you have a Level 1 mana troop equipped to the above Jean-Francois, there is a +17% boost in attack stat. This means that, in game, JF would have an effective attack stat shown of 862.


Regarding the second observation about defending teams dealing more damage, you are in fact correct. There is, and has always been, a silent & unseen boost in the stats of defence heroes which is NOT shown on the hero cards (before or in battle) but is applied to the Damage Calculation.

The silent boost equates to +20% to the attack stat & defence stat.

The reason it is there is to counter the fact that the AI is extremely dumb compared to the average human player… Additionally, you (the raider) get many opportunties to deal damage to the enemy via the tiles on the board (can get huggggeee cascades)… While the defence team only gets 1x slash attack every 5 or so turns…


Starting boards Are[n’t] Fair

There are existing threads for this so I won’t go into it.

Threads & studies conducted by PLAYERS which disproves your statement:

Mana Generation

Yes, you’re correct that the defence generates mana two ways, both passive & dynamic.

Again, this is to counteract the fact that you, the raider, get opportunities to generate mana constantly via the tiles on the board. You can create / get huge cascades which not only kill the enemy with tile damage but ALSO generate huge amounts of mana.

The defence team doesn’t get that benefit… So they have passive & dynamic mana generation.

Passive mana generation is a static amount every turn while dynamic is based on the tiles that hit them, a quantity that decays with cascades.

There are other investigative threads by players which work out the “passive” mana generation (Such as This One.


“Traits”

You are not alone in this feeling. See existing thread :slight_smile:
[Master] - Are talent odds fake? -- Excessive Dodge/ Revive/ Resist etc

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i agree, specially when I have a bad raiding streaks. So many times you feel that there is a conspiracy against your win, and so many times you only have to match 3 tiles to create a huge cascade, erase the tank, charge your heroes and smash a stronger opponent.

1.- Matchmaking: It´s made to make things harder as you climb the ladder, I´m moving around 2.100-2.400 trophies not being able to make a 4.000 tp without 5* maxed and get paired even with 4.600 teams, of course i have to reroll a lot of times. When being an active player this is not an issue but for new players this is annoying. They barely produce or farme enough food to train heroes or do a reroll.

I think there is a huge improve margin: If system offer you the chance of facing a stronger or weaker challenge: and an according loot. easier challenge allows you to play raids without a lot stress and provide you moderate gainings and those who looks for strong battles would have what they want.

2.- Hero cards: It´s part of the game, attacker doesn´t get all the info on purpose we have to make our own calculations between the enemy Team power and the heroes stat. I really don´t watch the heroes card excepting to make sure what their specials do. When fighting I check it multiple times. I have to adit how some heroes deal huuge damage when defending and as attackers hit like a chicken feather. (those fast aoe attackers like Melia or Vela)

3-4 boards and mana. These statements are heavily connected, and I agree that the system usually helps you to win or lose the match. When playing normal maps you get better boards even titans sometimes provide brutal cascades or not a single combo to stun the titan. implying scores 4X higher or lower depending on the luck.

Traits: This is one of the most unfair things you can meet: There are almost useless traits (Like barbarian´s, other that helps a bit and other that directly changes the damm match: I have just met a Boldtusk who revived 3 times and fired twice) This needs a huge revision.

I appreciate all the information but 2 things still stand out.

  1. you indicated the is a +/-300 trophy range and within that range we should be matched to those closer to our trophy count more frequently. However, my numbers show that doesn’t happen. I know 300 raids isn’t a huge sample but it is a fair number. How do explain that difference?
  2. I understand boosts to attack, defense, and health can be explained by troops but on the JF card pre-raid his special skill is jumped from 302% damage to 404% after the battle started. Cohen special stats also improved. I am not aware of troops adding significant damage to special skills.

Finally, I will also just say you attempted to discredit my experiment results because someone else says it doesn’t happen is not proof it doesn’t happen. My numbers clearly show bias in boards. My numbers are facts that happened.

Your numbers do indeed mirror it pretty well.

You have a bit more of a low-end tail but that could simply be statistical variation. Or it could be due to the raid arena you’re in or many other factors (including that it may not be a binomial distribution but instead a weighted distribution towards the lower tail).



Attack stat increases do indeed affect Damage Over Time special skills. This means that Levelling, Emblems & Troops all increase / change the quantity of DoT dealt via a special skill.

It’s why when a hero is not maxed, it won’t have the full DoT amount, despite having 8/8 special skill already. Also explains the phenomenon you’re describing.

You can read more about it in this comprehensive guide: Understanding DoT (Damage over Time)

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Probably a function of online players are immune to attack.

May also be weighed to players with more resources in their watchtower. Or players most recently logged in.

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My last thoughts on this.

  1. First and most importantly I truly appreciate the new knowledge guvnor shared on DoT. It is always good to learn something new. I don’t want the rest of the post to overshadow my genuine appreciation for the time and effort took to help me learn more about the game.

  2. Back to my original post. Matchmaking…it seems no one has any idea how this works besides +/-300 trophies…that in and of itself is a serious issue. Maybe big spenders are matched with the easiest teams in the +/- range? Maybe it’s completely random? Maybe recent activity makes you a target? Maybe it’s lack of recent activity? Or maybe it’s like SG implies and it goes through a progression of available targets closest to your shield count? The fact that no one can tell you is a problem and indicates it very well may be broken…You don’t know. And you defended it any way.

  3. Hero cards are broken. Again I thank anyone who pointed out troops buffs, which I overlooked in my first post, and guvnor for the info about DoT…this information does not mean the cards aren’t broken/fake. If your kid brings home a report with all A’s on it but in reality they earned all C’s and 2 D’s, is that report card real even though it gives false information? No. Hero cards are the same. They provide you with scores that are up to 33% off in my limited sample. And they don’t show you the troops you are facing so you can figure out real stats…maybe they are just giving huge buffs to big spenders. Prove me wrong. You can’t because the hero cards are indeed broken. There is no reason the stats of the team you are facing can’t be put on the hero cards, or troops can’t be shown.

  4. Biased starting boards. I know this is a touchy subject. My numbers show in my experience they are biased by elevating the frequency of starting boards featuring the color I didn’t use. Others may have a different experience but for 300 raids without a shadow of a doubt there were biased boards.

Finally, the discussion went exactly the way I and SG predicted. I warned you in my opening post that SG refused to address any issue and requested I post it the forum. Why? Because the knew people would rush to defend them. It’s peoples nature to defend what they like. It is natural for forums to create an insiders clique where the only complaints to be heard or valid are from insiders. All other complaints must be defended against. In the end, you are weakening the forum by chasing away new people and you have done it enough SG doesn’t need to listen to even you. Why do you think they ignored the beta testers? Look in the mirror.

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Small correction:

Troop stats are shown. You just need to tap on the team & it displays ALLLL the information you are accusing of not showing.

Then simply tap on whatever you want to know the stats about:

Then the in-game stats are base * Troops



The rest of it is your opinion which you’re entitled to based on your experiences. All others can do is show/ hilight/ demonstrate their own experiences & its up to you if you take that on board & adjust or continue on as before.

I’ve provided my experiences & knowledge based on my 3+ years of playing & countless hours of reading & discussing on the forum, Line & discord; Whether that has any weight or not idk and idc :stuck_out_tongue: Thats just my opinions & perspectives haha.

Beauty & curse of everyone being individuals with their own perspective/ beliefs. :slight_smile:


A final note on the matchmaking thing:

You’re correct that no player has a concrete 100% this is exactly how it works understanding of it… and realistically that is always going to be the way of it… Matchmaking is an impossible one to view from the outside. All we can do is provide our observations.

On it being “broken”, in my opinion if it is “broken” its evenly broken for all…
Having had experience with coding, deliberatly adding code which specifically modifies the “RNG” (in quotations cause people do/dont believe in the randomness :stuck_out_tongue:) changes based on “spending habbits” has two flaws from my perspective:

  1. it implies a level of spite for the non-spenders which is pretty hard to believe… Particularly when I know many Free To Play players who love raiding & are very successful at it too.
  2. Allll that extra code takes a lot of time & effort which has very little to no benefit… All it does is drive away large portions of the player base which still generate A LOT of revenue via advertising, word of mouth etc…

My $0.02 anyways :stuck_out_tongue:

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