Quit raids completely or change the rules

The system of raids depends on how many cups you have not on team strenght, i think this sucks.

There players with a 4 star defence team to lose cups only to hit back with theyr 5 star 80 team to get food and iron. They are not interested in the cups only in the items. So the ranking is bullshit it says nothing about the level of the player or his team strenght.
A better way would be if you start a raid the system looks for a match according to team strenght.
Or skip the stealing part and make raiding just about cups.
Or dont allow teams far below the max team costs.

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Raiding trophies are awarded like ranking points in an Elo-type ranking system (like in chess or tennis). Team power does not matter - nor should it, for ranking purposes.

This has been discessed ad nauseam in other threads. Have a search, if you’re interested.

I know how the ranking works.
But there players with a 4 star defence team to lose cups only to hit back with theyr 5 star 80 team to get food and iron. They are not interested in the cups only in the items. So the ranking is bullshit it says nothing about the level of the player or his team strenght.
A better way would be if you start a raid the system looks for a match according to team strenght.
Or skip the stealing part and make raiding just about cups.

  1. Omitting the theft of food and iron from raiding is a genuinely interesting idea. Personally, I’d be fine with that. I’d like to see what others think.

  2. If a player has a fully jacked 5* team, I’m pretty confident that they have little interest in stealing a trifling 50,000 food or iron from you. (I say this as someone who does not have a fully jacked 5* team, but who is close). If you find yourself being hit by jacked 5* teams, it’s more likely to be for the Wanted Chest kills.

  3. Matching based on team strength would completely undermine the ranking system. I’m sure you appreciate this, because you began by saying that you ‘know how the ranking works’. Well okay then.

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I know for a fact there several players who play raids this way. Most of them place a four star team to maintain around 22k cups for the allaiance score. But ther also some who have only 1 1 star hero in the defence because they are not in a allaiance.

Another option to make it better would be to not allow defence teams far below a player max team costs.

If a player wishes to field a weak defensive team then I see no problem with it. They’re gaming the system, yes, but it seems harmless. I don’t really see why we should restrict defence team composition.

Maybe at the mid-game level there is some incentive to steal resources from weaker players - this is why I would not oppose abolishing raid theft, as I said. But once you get to teams of L80 5* heroes (which is what you initially described) then there is no point in stealing trivial little pots of resources: your city produces quantities that dwarf what you can steal by raiding.

Well speaking as someone who does have a jacked 5* team when I decide to play it, 50k food? Yes please.

The game mechanics are such that it takes on the order of 5 million food to level a hero from 1 to 80; maybe more actually if we’re talking 1/2* only. It’s a lot, and farms just don’t cut it… a level 20 farm produces 5300 per hour, and we have 9 of those at SH20: one raid flag (generated in the same hour) for 50k ham, that is a higher income than fully maxed farms.

Taking resources out of raids is a pretty bad idea: why do it otherwise? You can’t get enough from farms / mines if you’re playing anywhere close to max efficiency.

For me it’s not about the wanted chest… and I basically never revenge unless I recognize the person that hits me (there’s been a total of 4 exceptions to that rule in the last six months). Why would I? Bad math for someone who wants food: I have heroes and troops to level, and I’m out of food, again btw.

Should this be fixed somehow, sure: give an additional bonus of food / iron / items / something or other based on the cup value of the person that was hit; if that comes ANYWHERE close to making up for the benefits food wise to low cups, I’ll try to go maintain a top 100 ranking instead of the 2300ish I usually play at. That’s even more true with the alt who has only one 5* on 4th ascension but at 1200ish is playing substantially underneath true power (could maintain 2200 without much issue)… but basically the economy falls apart if you take the food out of the equation: would need to increase farm output by something like a factor of 2 or perhaps higher higher to make up the shortfall which is problematic as well.

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Interesting take - I appreciate your clearly argued thoughts.

Levelling heroes takes lots of food, so I’m in favour of having lots of food available for that purpose. I have, I think, been very lucky in training and summonsing - I now have eleven 5* heroes - but I regularly find myself stalled either by a lack of ascension materials or by there being no benefits to me of ascending a redundant hero.

When I am thus stalled, my 9 farms produce 5,300 food per hour, and my watchtower (L16) produces 10,332 food per hour - about 1.4m food per day, plus sundry Wanted Mission and Titan kill rewards. I use this food to train at L20, as I assume most players do.

I’ve currently got 58 L20 trainings queued over three camps. That’s more than 17 million food, so if I find my Joon or Justice tomorrow then I won’t be short of resources for levelling and ascending. The longer it takes me to produce my light 5* hero, the more food I will have banked when s/he arrives. I’ve got no interest in ascending junk while I wait.

Would I be wise to try to steal food by raiding? Here’s the food available from the first 10 targets I just looked at:

1939, 4436, 1817, 1986, 1469, 6399, 1499, 2073, 4461, 889

A tiny sample size, I know, but the average food on hand was less than 2700. None of those targets would have been worth my while.

And if I had found a nice target on my next roll - with, say, 30,000 food? It costs me 2000 food per roll. I just spent 20,000 taking my sample - if I got lucky on my next roll it would have cost me 22,000 to find 30,000. Not exactly coining it, and maybe it wouldn’t take one extra roll, but ten… or more. This could easily be a pastime that costs me food.

I think you’re wrong when you assert that the economy would fall apart were thievery banned. There’s no market equilibrium to be upset, unless I’ve misunderstood something you’ve described. It might make it harder for you to get food, but based on the food targets I see I’m not even convinced of that. Stopping raiding might actually benefit you.

I don’t revenge either, by the way. Like you, I don’t see the point. But I do love raiding. I do it for the sport.

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Not certain what cup ranges you are taking your sample at, but this is literally the worst possible time (event, midday US time) to be trying to do any sort of analysis on that front.

I don’t even have L20 TC’s, haven’t even gone above 11; heroes take a lot of food, when we’re talking 1* and 2* troops it takes on the order of 4 million food PER LEVEL when it comes to 4* troops once you start getting to the higher levels. I haven’t even done all the research yet, I just don’t have the resources to do L20 trainings even if I’d gotten a TC up there and I started back in early July for reference.

End-game progression doesn’t come through TC20 for me (or at least not yet… the alt is pushing TC20 once the current set of heroes is finished leveling) but I’m not F2P either.

Stopping raiding definitely would be a net loss even to my main where I’m stuck with an artificial floor on cups (my choice playing in highly ranked alliance)… the alt gets more ham than you do though with nowhere close to the watchtower and farms though as it isn’t constrained in terms of cups. Basically not raiding is a waste of flags and therefore potential resource: occasionally I’ll take a loss but not very often since I’ve learned some times just don’t make sense to try to raid at.

Thievery? :slight_smile:

There has to be food in order to progress in this game, and as it is, food is already an artificial limiter: if we cut that by 40% or more, what does that do to the progression in the game? Would suck and make progression even more costly (food would become more valuable to purchase with gems)… bleh.

Anyway I have yet to see any cogent argument where lowering an already restrictive resource makes any sense from a game design perspective: it’s one thing if everyone has too much, but I’d argue those that don’t aren’t playing as optimally as they could.

I’d be happy if there was an incentive to gain and hold trophies, but as of now there isn’t at all with the exception of those who care about the top 100, or those that are in an alliance that cares about that ranking.

That’s the game design flaw if there is one… so making them valuable is the right decision.

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The last sentence. “I do it for sport” that is just the point i tried to make that is what it should be raiding another player that is in strenght equal or higher than you that is exactly what raiding should be about .

When I was sampling food targets I was top 50-ish, so probably 2700-2800 trophies. I recognise that such a teeny sample proves zero, but it certainly does not encourage me to try to raid for food.

I have four 5* heroes that are fully jacked. I have not had to fully deplete my stacked L20 trainings to complete an ascension since #2, around when I took my training camps to L20. I find the main limitation on ascension is not food, but the ability to generate a sufficient quantity of uncommon or better heroes at speed. (I won’t muck around training only common heroes - they are not nutritious.) When ascending, I run three training camps 24/7 producing fodder, and I do not run out of food.

Maybe the difference is that you are trying to level and ascend more heroes than me? I have no 5* heroes I am looking to ascend now, and only two 4*s that I am happy to feed whatever low level heroes I happen across. So if you gave me an unlimited supply of food I would certainly pump it into trainings, but it would not help my immediate progress in the game.

When I described getting food from raids as ‘thievery’, I did so facetiously and without judgement - sorry if I gave the impression I disapproved on some moral basis. I’m in favour of in-game thievery if it is fun, and against it if it is not fun.

Regardless of any of this, I agree that an incentive to win and hold trophies would be a good thing. I do it anyway - it’s the point of the game, for me - but I understand that others do not.

Yeah I can’t get any food worth a ■■■■ in the top 100 so I don’t play there when I have mass food requirements. It’s not lost on me that Zero deliberately dropped some cups, probably for this very reason frankly.

When it comes to hero exp/time, can’t get much better than TC’s 1/2/3: I don’t ignore those at all… sure it costs less to ignore common hero trainings, but hero progression goes much slower. Optimal for me is leveling heroes as quickly as possible right now, so we’re in very different places when it comes to in game needs. Also the three 80’s I need to build currently, would improve my raid capabilities and to a lesser extent my titan ones… but prior to this event I was in that place and will be back there again within a month for likely the next several I’d guess.

I’m also guessing the OP in this discussion who stated he was level 51 in another posting, probably falls closer to where you are in game than where I am… but I’d suggest the vast majority of players are more like me in the sense they’re not functionally complete with the heroes they have leveled.

Actually at level 51 he’s likely been in game so long I’m a little confused by the issue regardless, TC20 should’ve blessed him by now even for a pure F2P player.

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I’m not entirely opposed to TC2 for training fodder, but I won’t use TC1 or TC3.

Seems like it is indeed our different game stages that drive our different needs, though like you I’m a little confused about OP’s situation. Perhaps s/he means something different by L51 than I thought.

I think the bottom line is that some sort of incentive for trophy collection would not go amiss.

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Brobb I reached level 52 in the game have almost everything at level 20 so no problem there i only finfd that raiding should be away of ranking, by battling against somewhat equal opponents and not be dilutted by food issue’s.

So at level 52, is being raided for food really still a problem for you? I am only level 44 and it is certainly not a problem for me, so it’s difficult for me to imagine you as a hapless victim.

The raiding is not the problem to me and i dont miss the food I just think the cups rating is not working as it was intended to by the developers.

There are quite a few previous threads discussing how the trophies system works, as I have mentioned, that I would encourage you to read.

So skipping discussions of Elo-type ranking systems, suffice to say I’m of the view that the E&P trophies system is working exactly as intended. Sure, if you decide you want to tank (for whatever reason) then you will be ranked lower than you otherwise might, but this is a feature, not a bug - it’s also true for any other ranked sport or game. Do you think it is a problem? Why? If that is not the problem, then what do you think is the problem? Do you have some indication that the developers intended something other than what we have? What might that be?

The problem is by tanking they screwing other players ranking and while the ranking is important for a lot of alliances to let them enter yes or no they are messing other players fun in the game.

Excuse me if a mere level 36 from a “normal” (i.e. not top 100) alliance joins the discussion, but why on earth should anyone remove the incentive of gaining food from raids?

To a “normal” player, cups are nearly meaningless.
Sure, they are nice for bragging rights and they contribute to alliance points … but honestly: so what?

I personally do not enjoy pvp and do it only for the chests. But of course, if I can win a nice stash of food, that whets my appetite. And if I win, my heroes get a nice meal. I am always leveling heroes and, like Revelate, I do not sneer at a nice little basket of food falling into my lap.

At lower levels, I used to do pvp only for the food. And, hey, after all it is called “raids” … and not “combat for no reason other than trophys” :smile:

By the way, I got a visit from a member of 7DD last night :slight_smile: They kicked my butt from here to eternity (on the 2nd try … smiles) - and I feel quite honored by such a visit :slight_smile: Once people from a top alliance knock on my keep door, I know that I am doing sonething right :smile:

Oh, and without using a lot of food, I would not be in a position to welcome such visitors :wink:

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Your premise is flawed. Better players do not ‘screw’ other players’ ranking when they tank. If someone tanks, then is matched against a worse player, then they should beat them and take their trophies, because they are a better player. That is just, and an example of the system working exactly as it should. If the worse player wants to keep their trophies, then they need to win.

Trophies don’t measure who is nicest, they measure who is best.

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