Optimal hero development progression for the game

@Gryphonknight started me thinking on a really interesting digression from the main subject here: Deciding where to spend your class emblems [Math, Analysis]:

Here is my recommended hero development progression for players past their 3* hero phase:

  1. Maxed rainbow 4* team (OK to leave them at ~4/60, only feeding them the occasional trainer hero)
  2. Second maxed 4* rainbow team (still OK to leave them at ~4/60 too)
  3. Fill in AW bench with 20 more heroes
    This can include at most one rainbow set of 5* heroes mixed in with the 4* heroes, all ascended correspondingly one rank lower than the 4* heroes.
    3A. Build 20 heroes to ~2/20
    3B. Take the 20 to 3/60
  4. Third rainbow team, chosen from the 20.
    (Finish any heroes that I left at ~4/60 now)
  5. First 5* 4/80 rainbow team.
    (You may not have a worthwhile one in each element; do the ones you have now)
  6. Finish AW bench to 30 counting only 5* 4/80, 3/70, and 4* 4/70 heroes
  7. Continue developing 5* heroes as you get them / get mats to finish them.
    (Note: Long term average drop rate for 4* mats vs. 3* mats means you can do a pair of either maxed 4* or 5* 3/70 for each maxed 5* you make. Choose accordingly.)

I’m speculating on what it would be like with three 3/60 teams, as I didn’t progress that way, but here’s what I see as options to compare:

  • Rainbow 4/70 team
    (Clearly better on your defense team)
  • Your choice of 3/2 stacked 3/60 team
    (Guess a bit better against small titans where hero survival isn’t a big issue)
    (Guessing a bit stronger for raiding where your color stacking choice is effective all the way through, probably not for quests/challenge events where the boss monsters don’t have the same colors as the mob monsters, making stacking for one miss the other.)
    (Better AW offensive depth at the expense of worse AW defense; Dunno if it is a net win or loss there)

Either I’m missing something or you have rather different game priorities than I do; I don’t see it as a better general progression. Here are my priorities, based on chances of getting non-farmable ascension mats, and what I find fun in the game:

  1. Titans
  2. Completing map levels, quests, challenge events, etc. for ascension mats/completion rewards.
  3. Raid offense (I find raiding fun)
  4. Raid defense (At least until it was good enough to keep me in diamond; further improvements don’t excite me.)
  5. Alliance War
  6. Being competitive in challenge events.
  7. Collecting fun game avatars.
There are ALWAYS exceptions, that's normal!

Because RNG’s gonna be RNG’s, your roster will have somebody so good or so bad that you should deviate from what is normally ideal, ignoring an awful hero when they are your only choice in a category, or putting a really good one ahead.

In my case, Delilah as an early 5* healer was so disruptively good that I took her to 3/70 before any yellow 4* and before I had darts to finish her, probably even before I had food storage sufficient to 700k food for her final ascension. Plus 5* healer/buffer heroes hit full capacity at special skill 8/8, rather than only when they hit their full attack stat at 4/80, so are much more effective at 3/70 than offensive heroes.


Everyone has their own play style.

Gryphonkit and I play to win:

Click for Color stacking the hidden buff of Empires


P.S. color stacking is non-linear so it breaks the current Devs decision not to trust Elo’s math and use power based matching.

Revive counter minimizes my points lost to my rainbow 4* 4.70 War defense team while color stacking lets me fight above my war matches strength.

I understand why Devs skipped Elo’s math, I just strongly disagree and will exploit their poor choices.

“never count on your enemies making mistakes, but always take advantage when they do.” Old army adage.

I totally agree on the power of color stacking. I’m not convinced that building a team for color stacking 4* 3/60 heroes before building the first 4* rainbow team is the best game progression.

It is an interesting idea though!

I’ve taken several 4* to 3/60 across all colors and quite liked the results especially since the ones I had weren’t quite ‘the best’. It really helped fill out my AW bench depth, give me individual raid team options, and was reasonably fast all while building up a collection of ascension mats. This comes as generally a C2P (VIP).

One could argue things like the merits of 2x Li and 1x Hu all at 3/60 vs taking 1 to 4/70 (the feeder math isn’t quite apples to apples) but those are the 4* yellow heroes I have /shrug. It also gives me 3 reasonably viable yellow options for stacking vs a 3*

Edit: I also leveled my heroes in a post alliance war game which, at least for me, tipped the scales on getting a 4* to 3/60 and then starting to level another 4* of the same color

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Some heroes are good…

…some suck, but most are okay.

I used to agree with you, until I lost 6- 7 months of Royal Tabard because I could not complete the rare quest with the two Vampire Lords. But was easily able to complete it with Kiril 4* 3.60 .

Not only does 3 rainbow 4* 3.60 teams allow color stacking, it gives you more hero special skills to choose from. It it allows you to find out what of your heroes are team heroes, which are solo heroes and which work well together. This is a good time to level your first rainbow team to 4* 4.1 .

After one GOOD rainbow 4* 4.70 team, having 4x to 5x rainbow 4* 3.60 heroes gives you even more color stacking options, more hero special skills to choose from. It allows you to find out which of your team heroes work the best with each other, and which solo heroes are extraordinary on both attack and defense ( looking at you Joon and Gravemaker ).

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I think the choice between 15x 3/60 and 5x 4/70 also is influenced strongly by what limits you are facing in the game, hero selection or ascension mats.

Being unsure about which heroes I liked better … or worse being pretty confident that the ones I had sucked point toward not ascending them yet.

Not having the mats would force that choice.

OTOH, only having a single rainbow team to work with would point me the other way, toward ascending them if I liked them. (My first rainbow team was Tiburtus, Delilah, Caedmon, Kiril, Scarlett and they worked great together. I also had Sabina but neglected her until later)

This is a separate argument about 3* / 4* ascension items, RNG as a paywall and paywall heroes.

The optimal way to advance in the game is to have one of every GOOD 4* / 5* hero.

Many of my teammates still have no decent paywall 4* / 5* heroes due to RNG and budgetary constraints.

Many people go 12- 18 months without Wu Kong.

One of my teammates’ first rainbow team was 5* 4.80 x Zeline, Aeron, Delilah, Gravemaker and Perseus. They spend a lot more on Empires than I can afford. They only missed Alberich, Hel, Ares, and Athena because their first alliance was dumb hats so the teammate rage quit Empires until my wife joined an awesome alliance.

My favorite saying about E&P was that this game separates players into one of three categories:

  • Those who are willing to pay to get what they want.
  • Those who have the patience to wait to get what they want.
  • Those that ragequit.
    :rofl: Pick your poison and go with it.

Honestly, I note that the categories aren’t quite that sharp, and players bounce between them. (I’ve applied both patience and money; from what I read of your story, you’ve mostly done patience and ragequiting :laughing:)

Please don’t take this as endorsing the business model/paywall hero model as a good thing–What I’m endorsing that it IS reality in this game I’m playing, and that I will be a happier player if I acknowledge and work with rather than complaining mightily about and pretending it doesn’t affect me.

Captain Obvious here, I know, but the more heroes you summon the better your odds are of getting those rare but amazing heroes. And the more you summon + the more you run TC20, the more of the stock hero set you’ll have.

Consider TC20 and summoning to be skimming the cream off the top of a bucket of Dawa’s, Friar Tuck’s, and Renfeld’s. (Which you can at least feed to the cream you skim off!)

If you have a big bucket to skim, you’ll be able to pick absolutely the best heroes to level up…and the smaller your bucket is, the less picky you can afford to be about who you level up next.

If your bucket is very small, (free players) it looks sane if not good to level up horrible 4*s like Hu Tao if he is all you have, instead of staring at your orbs and hoping for Wu Kong instead…for six months, in which time you’ll find more orbs anyway if you do find Wu!

On the extreme large bucket side, you shouldn’t even keep one of either to maybe level up in desperation; they are all food, along with any 4* from TC20 you aren’t going to level up this month…you’re likely to pull another one in next month’s Atlantis anyway so if you decide you do want a second or third Grimm, so why waste the space hoarding it.

The point being you do choose how big a bucket you’re gonna buy in this game … make your choice and then play the game in a way that compliments your choice.


Cream versus Mechanic’s tools

You are not wrong.

I prefer the analogy of a Mechanic’s tools.

Used versus new

A new mechanic can decide to buy used ( Classic heroes form Legendary training and regular gem summons ) or new ( Previous HotM from Atlantis summons ). Some tools - like a car lift - can be bought used, but require an installation fee ( paywall heroes ).

Used buying

Like buying used tools, what is available each week is totally random. There might be an estate sale with outdated tools ( Classic heroes ), or a going out of business sale with a quickly depleted selection ( Challenge event summons ), or a friend who has a parent retiring getting you a great one time deal (pulling HotM Gravemaker the first summons ).

Sometimes when buying used tool you will have to buy a lot, including tools you do not need, to get the hammer you want, or the wrench you want or the chisel you want.

Pneumatic powered socket wrench versus a crescent wrench and a length of pipe

The 5* heroes are the most versatile ( like a socket wrench ) the most powerful ( like a pneumatic powered socket wrench ) and the most durable ( like a high quality alloy, pneumatic powered socket wrench ).

The 4* heroes are not as versatile ( like a crescent wrench ) not as powerful ( like a manual crescent wrench ) and not as durable. But if you have several 4* heroes you can color stack and it is usually better to have different special skills than the same ( the trick of fitting a pipe over a wrench handle, or using a hammer and chisel, or using a jack and jack stands instead of a hydraulic lift ).

Set up budget

Being able to buy every tool and every one new gives you the option of taking any job. While buying used, and only what you need, will take longer to have the tools needed for any job.

But neither new tools, or used tools, teaches you how to use those tools. You have to put in the time making repairs and learning from your teammates, to learn which tools to use, and how to use them the best.

Paying jobs

You have to learn which jobs you can complete ( wold energy ), which jobs you can brute force ( 75g continue ) and which jobs you have to turn down ( 10* titans for my alliance ).

Turning down paying jobs

Where I think players make mistakes is assuming their wrench set is better if they have every size available ( 4* 4.70 or 5* 4.80 ) when their money would be better spent getting the most common wrenches, the most common screwdrivers, the most common socket set, the most common chisels, the most common hammers ( multiple rainbow hero teams of 3* 3.50, 5* 2.60, 4* 3.60 ) so they can make the most different types of repairs. The ability to make more different types of repairs allows them to accept more jobs ( rare quests, class quests, etc. ) then having to turn down money because they cannot complete the repair ( failed rare quests, failed class quests, etc. )

If you are trying to remove a damaged bolt or a shredded wheel or a damaged headlight, you might not even care if you have the correct tool to remove it, just as long as it gets removed ( Carpet bombing ).

Eventually the goal is to have every type of tool ( hero ) available in ever size ( X*+20 ) but you have to earn money to pay for overhead ( food, recruits and iron ), and new tools ( ascension items and heroes ), so you can work up to the biggest jobs.

Good thread friend !
I have two Rainbow maxed teams of 4*
I have some 5* to develope
And a bunch of 3* and 4* to bring to 3/60

Its time to develope AW bench while i wait for a compass

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